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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 331 of 378 (918417)
05-01-2024 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by AZPaul3
05-01-2024 4:51 AM


Re: Santayana
As Mark Twain did not say when he didn't comment on Santayana, "History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes." (Quote Investigator Thinks theodor Reik a likely candidate.) What happens this time around will include both similarities and differences to the protests of the late 60's and early 70's. One very significant difference is that we are not drafting young men to risk their lives in a distant foreign war, and it seems unlikely that we will. Gaza is too tiny and defenseless, Hamas not withstanding, for this war to last much longer.
There seem a couple significant confusions this time around. First, demonstrating against Israel's actions in Gaza does not automatically make one pro-Palestinian in the sense of supporting war against Israel or of believing Israel should not exist or of supporting Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah. What I hope is that the demonstrators are mostly against the Israeli slaughter of Gazans and for relieving Gazan suffering.
Second, it's often not clear whether such demonstrations are also anti-Zionist. But the reality is that Zionism is itself racist. Zionism is support for a Jewish nation that combines state and religion into one and disenfranchises those of other religions and nationalities. It is Zionism that drives Israeli hatred of Palestinians. Not that Palestinians don't have their own racist hatreds, but neither wrong makes the other right.
I haven't seen the demonstrators calling much attention to Zionism, but the association is impossible to avoid.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2024 4:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2024 10:33 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 337 by Phat, posted 05-03-2024 3:33 PM Percy has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 332 of 378 (918420)
05-01-2024 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Percy
05-01-2024 8:32 AM


Re: Santayana
Yes, not having hundreds of your friends and family coming home every month in body bags is a significant difference. This war is not slapping you in the face every waking hour. USofA participation in this present atrocity is hidden in the shipping containers of bombs and bullets we supply to both sides.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Percy, posted 05-01-2024 8:32 AM Percy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 333 of 378 (918444)
05-03-2024 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by AZPaul3
05-01-2024 4:51 AM


Re: Santayana
AZProtester3 writes:
If there is a similar outcome to last time the schools across this country may well erupt.

"A little revolution now and then is a healthy thing, don't you think?" from The Hunt for Red October.
It depends where the revolution leads us. Thank God Jerry Rubin became a capitalist! R.I.P.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2024 4:51 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Theodoric, posted 05-03-2024 11:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 334 of 378 (918449)
05-03-2024 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Phat
05-03-2024 9:43 AM


Re: Santayana
What is the relevance of Jerry Rubin? Do you know anything about him?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 05-03-2024 9:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 05-03-2024 2:45 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 335 of 378 (918456)
05-03-2024 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Theodoric
05-03-2024 11:52 AM


Jerry Rubin was, as far as I know, an activist and protester in the sixties who later became a businessman. Is there anything more I should know about him?
My own sister was one of those protesters back then. My Dad was the businessman and she was the rebel in the family. I never had any desire to protest much of anything since I was living quite well back then...safe at home.
She of course went to college and became feisty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Theodoric, posted 05-03-2024 11:52 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 05-03-2024 6:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 336 of 378 (918457)
05-03-2024 3:05 PM


Violent Demontrations
Today in conversation with friends I found myself in the minority defending student demonstrations. They felt that the pro-Palestinian demonstrations deserved to be broken up because they were antisemitic, and because people from outside the universities had joined the demonstrations, and because they had become disruptive of normal campus activities and in some cases become violent and destructive.
I was surprised to hear people I usually agree with say these things, but maybe it is me that has lost touch with events. To me, objecting to what Israel is doing in Gaza is not antisemitic. If the demonstrations aren't largely peaceful then I've missed it. And most campuses are open. There's nothing wrong with people from outside the universities joining demonstrations on campus.
Hearing these things felt like listening to marc9000 rail on about the violence of the BLM riots when they were largely peaceful. My position is that if you want violence then just send in police to end demonstrations. As soon as demonstrators refuse to disperse then the police will feel justified in using violent means to make them disperse.
The US might have free speech, but for those whose feelings reach the point where just standing behind a roped off area chanting and holding a sign isn't enough, when you're willing to become disruptive even in a passive way like sitting on a sidewalk, this country reserves the right to arrest you and use violence on you.
--Percy

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 337 of 378 (918459)
05-03-2024 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Percy
05-01-2024 8:32 AM


Percy writes:
There seem a couple significant confusions this time around. First, demonstrating against Israel's actions in Gaza does not automatically make one pro-Palestinian in the sense of supporting war against Israel or of believing Israel should not exist or of supporting Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah. What I hope is that the demonstrators are mostly against the Israeli slaughter of Gazans and for relieving Gazan suffering.

Second, it's often not clear whether such demonstrations are also anti-Zionist. But the reality is that Zionism is itself racist. Zionism is support for a Jewish nation that combines state and religion into one and disenfranchises those of other religions and nationalities. It is Zionism that drives Israeli hatred of Palestinians. Not that Palestinians don't have their own racist hatreds, but neither wrong makes the other right.

I haven't seen the demonstrators calling much attention to Zionism, but the association is impossible to avoid.
There is a form of Christian Zionism here in the United States and I would expect the protesters to eventually attack the idea of any religion claiming superiority and/or exclusivity over others to get flack. When I used to go to church we were taught that God Blesses those who Bless Israel and Curses those who curse Israel.
Im sure that quite a few conservative Christians still believe that. I can see AZPaul now. He is chomping at the bit to go protest against organized religion!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Percy, posted 05-01-2024 8:32 AM Percy has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 338 of 378 (918462)
05-03-2024 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
05-03-2024 2:45 PM


You brought him up. Why is he relevant?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 05-03-2024 2:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 05-04-2024 2:17 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 340 by xongsmith, posted 05-04-2024 2:42 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 339 of 378 (918463)
05-04-2024 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Theodoric
05-03-2024 6:49 PM


Jerry Rubin
Because he chose Capitalism over Socialism. He chose wisely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 05-03-2024 6:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2024 9:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 340 of 378 (918464)
05-04-2024 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Theodoric
05-03-2024 6:49 PM


Jerry Rubn
Theodoric writes:
You brought him up. Why is he relevant?
Actually it was i who brought his name up. See Message 321.
Yes, he later became an asshole. And Eldridge Cleaver as well - they kind of fell off the bus.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 05-03-2024 6:49 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 341 of 378 (918465)
05-04-2024 3:11 AM


I saw a Lex Friedman interview of Netanyahu a few weeks ago.
I typically watch Friedman to see science interviews. But YouTube linked to a debate between Benny Morris and Norman Finkelstein.
I then followed a link, to see a Natanyahu interview.
I was thinking he might make an argument we rarely hear in the United States media - the "proportionality" argument which can often show that Israeli civilian deaths AS A PERCENTAGE OF ITS TOTAL POPULATION are actually higher than our 9/11 2001 death.
I did not watch the interview long enough to see if he made a point that needs making.
(Netanyahu did point out that he is proud that over 2 million Israeli citizens are non-Jewish Arabs. He said always makes a big point that BOTH people should live together and be vociferously opposes the view that people should not live together.)
It seems Israel is accused of allowing a false flag attack on 10/7/2023, and Americans tend to feel Israel is is killing a "disproportionately" large number of Gazans compared to the 10/7 attacks - false flag or not.
The "disproportion" argument ALWAYS gets used against Israel, as a way to criticize the responses.
But, it's fair to ask:
If Israel is "responsible" for its response, then why did Americans not make the same argument against THEIR OWN POLICIES post-9/11?
The Afghanistan invasion was a war that never ended, and when IT FINALLY ENDED, we heard nothing but bitching from the American polity and media. The argument was all about how "irresponsible" it was to "cut and run".
You can't have it both ways.
I'm not making any arguments about the proper policy in Gaza, but I just wish the same standards would be applied to Israel, as one applies elsewhere. There has always been an unfair "double standard" imposed on Israel, and even fairly anti- war folks like myself can't help but notice.
I feel the worldwide double standard is what contributed to the 10/7 attacks, and possibly in a major way.

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 05-04-2024 8:50 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 342 of 378 (918469)
05-04-2024 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by LamarkNewAge
05-04-2024 3:11 AM


Re: I saw a Lex Friedman interview of Netanyahu a few weeks ago.
Would you say that Iran,Hezbollah, The Houthis and Hamas are more Marxist than Capitalist? I feel that the whole world is in a Spiritual War of sorts...a war of ideas and ideologies. Percy has a point in that Israel should examine its own behavior, but even the protesting college students here in America need to know the drawbacks of Marxism. Or do they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-04-2024 3:11 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by xongsmith, posted 05-04-2024 1:23 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 345 by Percy, posted 05-04-2024 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 346 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-05-2024 7:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 343 of 378 (918470)
05-04-2024 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
05-04-2024 2:17 AM


Re: Jerry Rubin
Why do you feel he chose wisely? What business was he in? How successful was he. Is this all you know about him. Weird that you define the success of a person as how much knew they make as opposed to the good they do. Yet you seem to be at the low end of pay and an old man.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 05-04-2024 2:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 344 of 378 (918474)
05-04-2024 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
05-04-2024 8:50 AM


Re: drawbacks of Marxism
Phat writes:
students here in America need to know the drawbacks of Marxism
Those drawbacks have a long way to go to even be in the same galaxy as the drawbacks of Fascism. Marxism has never been implemented anywhere without immediate corruption by Fascists. Besides, it isn't Marxism you spit on - it's Socialism.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 05-04-2024 8:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22604
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 345 of 378 (918475)
05-04-2024 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
05-04-2024 8:50 AM


Re: I saw a Lex Friedman interview of Netanyahu a few weeks ago.
Phat in Message 342 writes:
Percy has a point in that Israel should examine its own behavior,...
Percy does not think "Israel should examine its own behavior." Percy thinks it long ago went way beyond
that. Israel claims its survival is at stake to justify its evil acts, but they know what they're doing is evil. No self-examination is necessary.
Jews were hated around the world without reason, but then they acquired their own country and proceeded over time to provide the world a legitimate reason, never more so than the current day.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 05-04-2024 8:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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