Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.

I would say that all of those groups are nationalistic, therefore "anti-Marxist".On the other hand:Israel was founded by very anti-nationalistic folks (like David Ben-Gurion), but Jews have been so utterly killed for "disloyal" sentiment toward nation-states, that is is (frankly) dangerous to say such - it goes unsaid, therefore.Every person on earth has had to negotiate with the prevailing nationalism, so much so that is is a fact that the situation we find ourselves in us SO nationalistic that the lines can easily be blurred when the average person surveys the situation and attempts to rate groups respective ideology.One solid hint as to a political party's actual - as opposed to self-reports - ideology is where they stand with regards to powerful events in world history.THE HOLOCAUSTI was shocked/scared to find out that only 70 percent of Democrats answer "no" when asked if THE HOLOCAUST IS A MYTH.The Economist/You Gov
Dec 2-5, 2023
1500 U.S. Adult CitizensThe Holocaust is a myth
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?AllYes 7%
No 77%Democrats (525)
Yes 10%
No 71%Independents (563)
Yes 5%
No 78%Republicans (409)
Yes 6%
No 83%Liberals (401)
Yes 7%
No 81%Moderates (464)
Yes 11%
No 69%Conservatives (487)
Yes 6%
No 85%Trump 2020 Voters (503)
Yes 4%
No 87%Biden 2020 Voters (520)
Yes 7%
No 81%All voters (1289)
Yes 6%
No 82%SEPARATE QUESTIONThe Holocaust has been exaggerated
Do you agree or disagree?All (1495)
Yes 9%
No 74%Democrats (524)
Yes 11%
No 70%Independents (562)
Yes 7%
No 74%Republicans (409)
Yes 8%
No 78%Liberals (400)
Yes 8%
No 82%Moderates (462)
Yes 13%
No 65%Conservatives (488)
Yes 6%
No 82%All Voters (1287)
Yes 8%
No 79%Trump 2020 Voters (505)
Yes 6%
No 83%Biden 2020 Voters (518)Yes 7%
No 79%So, only 65% of "moderates" say they disagree with the view that there is a powerful Jewish conspiracy that managed to put lies into our historical works so as to invent Jewish suffering at the hands of a World War 2 enemy.The Holocaust is a myth and Jewish propaganda, according to a lot of people these (dangerous) days.Only about 2/3s of "moderates" and Democrats will disagree.See question 45A. in The Economist/You Gov Dec 2-5,2023 poll.I have never been so jolted by the dangerous conspiracy crap, as I find myself presently.The Democratic party is full of self-described "moderates" who are a total freak show & a danger to us all.

YouGov conducts online polls and has a very good reputation. The poll results LamarkNewAge refers to can be found here: The Economist/YouGov Poll--Percy

He needs to start providing links so we do not have to search for his sources. The rest of us have to, he should not be exempt.

I don't know where LamarkNewAge got his figures, but it wasn't from the original source material in the link I provided. He got it from someplace that distilled it for him, but I couldn't find where.--Percy

Since no one's responded I'll say a couple things.Ignorance of readily available information has been rampant throughout history, never more so than today. That I find all political parties disappointing is the main reason I'm an independent. I don't know what's worse, believing the 2020 election was stolen, or thinking the holocaust a myth or exaggerated.--Percy

I figure the only way I can function in the same forum as LNA us to ignore him.

See pp. 102-104.Also, if you do the math yourself, you will notice that over 20% of Democrats under 45 will outright say they agree the Holocaust is a "myth". I suspect that only 50% will say NO.There are 525 poll respondents under 45, and of the total number of people who say "Yes" (104) to THE HE HOLOCAUST IS A MYTH, only 14 of the nearly 1000 over-45 group say "Yes".Democrats have 52 total respondents (out of 515 Democrats of all age groups) who say - outright - the Holocaust is a myth.Assuming half of the 14 over-45 ALL AMERICAN group who says "Yes", "I agree", are Democrats, then:Then 45 of the outright anti-Semites in the party are under 45.There are 308 30-44 poll respondents and 207 18-29 year olds.515 total.Democrats are represented at 35% of all age groups, and probably 40% of the 18 to 44 group, as they typically are that percentage.So about 205 Democrats under 45, were polled.With about 45 who say STRAIGHT OUT the Holocaust was a myth.(So almost a quarter of Democrats under 45 believe the most dangerous, despicable conspiracy theory of all time and the associated perspective of reality that Jews control everything)And understand this is the stronger of the two political parties in the most powerful nation on earth - plus the most active overseas.The party is becoming known for having members who feel they can believe whatever they want, facts be damned.Look at the college campus situation.

quote:

---

Washington Post

​

Denial of the Oct. 7 Hamas Attack is Spreading

​

....

​

Some argue the ambush was staged by the Israeli military to justify an invasion of Gaza. Others say that some 240 hostages Hamas took into Gaza were actually kidnapped by Israel.

​

....

​

Demonstrators have shouted the claim at anti- Israel protests... At a November city council meeting in Oakland, Calif., multiple residents disputed the veracity of the attack.

​

....

​

"Israel murdered their own people on October 7," said Christina Gutierrez, an analyst in the city's housing department, where some in the crowd shouted "antisemitism isn't real."

​

The head of International Relations for Hamas, Basem Naim, has falsely asserted that the group "didn't kill any civilians" when it attacked Israel on Oct.7, calling the claim "Israeli propaganda."

​

....

​

Influencers who question the Holocaust are also among those sowing doubt about Oct. 7.

​

....

​

This newer brand of antisemitism has led a generation of young people to dispute the Holocaust. One in five American adults under 30 say they agree the "Holocaust is a myth," according to a YouGov/Economist poll conducted in the first week of December.

​

....

​

[Joel] Feinstein said that conspiracy theories about Oct. 7 are beginning to bleed into the tumult roiling U.S. universities over the war. On X, activists claim Jewish students and "Zionist" are "staging false flag hate crimes against themselves on college campuses. ...a "contrived campus antisemitism crisis."

---

Actually - among Democrats - about HALF, under 45 years old, think it is possible the Holocaust is a myth.And OVER one in five DEMOCRATS under 45 say the Holocaust certainly is a myth.Under 45!A nationalistic, racist party controls the United States.No wonder the liberal anti-nationalist President of El Salvador came to America and told Republicans to "keep fighting" the "Globalists".Hillary Clinton supported the right wing coup in Honduras, as Secretary of State.Hillary Clinton supported the NATO invasion of Libya - which killed the 54 nation African Union Chairman and destroyed Libya.Democrats outlaw dissent and Central America knows it.Democrats censor political views and use the courts as weapons.Democrats are made up of fascist freaks who sadly control everything and aspire to control everyone with censorship and force.We all dislike Trump, as progressives & anti-nationalistsBut he is not an existential threat, like the fascist Democrats are.(Notice in the same poll, that only 61% of African Americans & 52% of Hispanics disapprove of Trump)
(More Hispanics approve of Trump than Biden)
(Whites approve of Trump only 12 points more than blacks - 46% vs. 34%)
(Only 11% higher disapproval among blacks verses whites)Democrats are a bunch of repulsive fascists and Trump somehow looks quite benign, compared to a bunch of dangerous fascists like the Democrats have clearly become)

I was wondering where you were going with this. You're not posting about the Israeli/Palestinian situation with a nod toward American politics. You're posting about American politics with a nod toward the Israeli/Palestinian situation. This belongs over in the 2024 US Presidential Election thread.--Percy

Really? A bullshit rant about random accusations about the sins of all Democrats adds valuable and accurate information to EvC if it's in the 2024 US Presidential Election thread?I think it's pretty bizarre that you think this kind of crap belongs anywhere, let alone at EvC!
​

quote:

---

See pp. 102-104.

---

Only page 103 deals with “Is the Holocaust a myth

quote:

---

Also, if you do the math yourself, you will notice that over 20% of Democrats under 45 will outright say they agree the Holocaust is a "myth". I suspect that only 50% will say NO.

---

Then I guess I’d better check the math.

quote:

---

There are 525 poll respondents under 45, and of the total number of people who say "Yes" (104) to THE HE HOLOCAUST IS A MYTH, only 14 of the nearly 1000 over-45 group say "Yes".

---

There are 513 respondents to that question under 45 - 207 18-29 year olds and 306 in the 30-44 bracket.
23% of the 18-29 group agree (48) and only 9% of the 30-44 (28)
That is 76. 32 of the over 45 group agree. Not 14. So a total of 108, not 104.

quote:

---

Democrats have 52 total respondents (out of 515 Democrats of all age groups) who say - outright - the Holocaust is a myth.
​
Assuming half of the 14 over-45 ALL AMERICAN group who says "Yes", "I agree", are Democrats, then:
​
Then 45 of the outright anti-Semites in the party are under 45.

---

Except that the number of 45-and-over who say yes is 32, not 14, so the correct number would be 36 (52-16), not 45.If the 205 figure is correct that would be 18%

I've replied over in the 2024 US Presidential Election thread in Message 878.--Percy

First, let me begin with some details of what I did.I looked at the UNWEIGHTED number of 1497 poll respondents, then divided by 7, and came to around 103/104 I AGREE answers.I then ONLY looked at the 2 older age groups percentage answers, and then came to about 1.4% I AGREES.That was how I came to the 14 divided by 2 = 7 Democrats over 44 saying I AGREE to the Myth.I did not seem to look at the numbers for the younger 2 age groups, but then I skipped right to the 52 total I AGREE number under the Democratic party answers.You did the exact opposite - only looking at the numbers (albeit with good consequence) for the younger groups.THE PROBLEM:ALL groups were apparently random answers, and they needed WEIGHTING.(Pollsters never weight for party identification, however, so understand this won't be directly manipulated)The 104 number (out of 1497) was not based on an actual numerical count. Infact, I seem to have created a phantom. The 1497 seems to have been increased to a number higher - perhaps 1700/1800? The four groups were adjusted and either multiplied UP or multiplied down.The eighteen to twenty-nine group was probably the most underrepresented in the UNWEIGHTED number of respondents. Same with the 30-44 group.I don't know for sure, but the "20%" of the 215 might have been adjusted upward to 20% of (say) 300, and the "8%" of 307 39-44 year olds might have been weighted as 400 (?) answers?20% of (adjusted) 300 18-29 year olds would = 60 I Agrees in the group8% of (adjusted) 400 30-44 year olds would equal 32 I Agrees.That would equal 106 out of 1675 weighted answers, if the other two age groups stayed the same.That would be almost 6.5%, so a slightly higher weight of the groups could bring the total in line with the 7% weighted I Agree answers.I don't know what the adjusted numbers per group were however.Another problem is that POLITICAL PARTY IDENTIFICATION can't be directly weighted (there is no way to accurately control the constantly moving self-identites of the polled), so it complicates the attempt to translate the separate poll parts into exact numbers for political parties - based on the limited information the poll provides.WHAT CLUES DO WE HAVE TO ACCURATELY ESTIMATE DEMOCRAT'S VIEWS?We do know 71% of total Democrats don't feel they can say that the Holocaust really happened.We know the same can be said if 78% of independents and 83% of Republicans.Independents outnumber Republicans by alot, so the combined total of non-Democrats saying either THE HOLOCAUST IS A MYTH or I DON'T KNOW is 20%Democrats are comparatively 40% more likely to say such a thing (29% verses 20%)Democrats verses EVERYBODY combined is 29% verses 23%, or 25% more.We know that a terrifying 49% of 18-29 year olds say that THE HOLOCAUST IS A MYTH or I DON'T KNOW.
We know that 32% of 30-44 year olds say the same.We DONT KNOW how these groups were weighted however, and that makes things tough when we want to find a way to divide the difference accurately.Perhaps we can say 38% is the probable combination of we could properly quantity the results if the total combined under-45 Americans?So, what about the Democratic party behemoth that Central America is so scared of? What about our attempt to isolate the under-45 party member's opinions?Perhaps we should divide 38 by 4? We get 9.5.Perhaps we should add 9.5 to 38, and see "47%" as the preliminary number of Holocaust deniers among Democrats under 45?(I will give a much longer response in the proper thread - but I am only allowed one post before I must wait 24 hours for another)

That's my generation, so I can confirm what you are saying. Our Woodstock was a bit different than the one our parents' generation went to. The closest Gen X has been to larger protests was the protest against the Iraq war in 2004, but that was nothing like the late 60's.At the same time, Gen X experienced the hangover from those protests in the late 70's and 80's. I'm thinking of films like Platoon, The Deer Hunter (late 70's), Apocalypse Now, and Rambo which scratched at a lot of old wounds in society. It was our father's generation that went to war in Vietnam, so there was still some connective tissue there. Law enforcement knows they are being watched and will be judged for what they do. I'm hoping this will prevent something like what was seen at Kent State. However, humans judgement can be extremely impaired in stressful situations which makes me worried.

There are a prophetic few sentences from America’s Monster - The New York Times. It's about the war in Afghanistan, but it speaks to what Israel is doing right now. Much of the article focuses on one of the senior Afghan commanders that we supported:

quote:

---

They saw his rule as little more than a brutal campaign against civilians, underwritten by the United States.

​

His acts not only discredited the American war effort — breeding profound resentment that pushed people to support the Taliban — but embodied it in many ways as well.
...
It stirred such enmity in parts of the population that the Taliban turned his cruelty into a recruiting tool, broadcasting it to attract new fighters. Many Afghans came to revile the American-backed government and everything it represented.

---

If we Americans were wondering how most of Afghanistan came to support the brutal Taliban, there it is. When caught in the crossfire between two evils, you choose the lesser evil. We were the other evil, the greater evil. It felt to American commanders that only the most brutal Afghan commanders were effective against the Taliban, and so we aligned ourselves with the greater evil inside the country.Israel is repeating this mistake in Gaza and the West Bank. Until they stop using Zionism and their own history as excuses to treat other peoples as having lesser or no rights or even as subhuman then there will always be conflict in the Middle East. Both Russia and the US lost in Afghanistan, and eventually even Rome fell. There's nothing sacred that says Israel must survive. They survived the 1967 war, they survived Intifada, they'll probably survive the current war in Gaza, but how many more wars will they survive as their very efforts to make Israel a safe haven for Jews only place them in greater peril.--Percy

I tend to think that Afghani's prefer an authoritarian theocracy over a western style democracy, no matter who is offered as a democratic leader. Both sides need to look to the future and move on from the past. Palestinians need to realize that they aren't going to push all the Jews into the sea and reclaim a Palestinian state. Israeli Jews need to accept Palestinians as equal citizens, and figure out a way to share power so that both populations can thrive.Part of the problem is that the Palestinians have no allies, not even in the Arab Sunni world. Egypt seems like an obvious broker for some sort of talks, but they want nothing to do with the Palestinians.Even worse, Palestinians have been used as pawns by other governments. Saudi Arabia and Israel were moving closer and closer to normalization between the two countries. Iran didn't like this, which is most likely what led to the terrorist attacks last October. Iran used Palestinians and Hamas to poison talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.What would happen if Israel and Saudi Arabia normalized relations? Saudi Arabia could be a wonderful ally for Palestinians, and serve the role of an honest broker. I think this is one way to forge a new path. I really don't think Jews and Palestinians can fix this one on their own. Each side is way too entrenched.