Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 45 (9208 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: anil dahar
Post Volume: Total: 919,516 Year: 6,773/9,624 Month: 113/238 Week: 30/83 Day: 6/3 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Taq
Member
Posts: 10304
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 481 of 501 (920633)
11-04-2024 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Phat
11-03-2024 10:54 AM


Re: Is Blackrock Bankrolling The Wars?
Phat writes:
Despite that, China has no interest in aggressively policing the world in the manner that the United States has done for 75 years +. China is positioning itself to become the next global power through a financial reset. The Colonel points out that US Hegemony has broken and will not be fixed anytime soon. He argues the case that the weaponization of the US Dollar was the first domino that caused the world we inherited in 1945 (in ruins) to reassert itself in league with BRICS and that we are positioned in opposition to BRICS through the various treaties and agreements of the past.
You can't be the next global power if you don't control the oceans. If it weren't for the US guaranteeing safe trade across the oceans then China would still be a poor backwater that has little else but agriculture. The Chinese "miracle" was only possible because of US hegemony.
Do you want China's navy deciding if US exported goods make it to their ports, or that US imports make it to our ports? Do you want the Chinese Yuan, one of the most manipulated currencies on the planet, to be the basis of international trade?
Most people think these are bad ideas. What about you?
No one else is in the position to take the place of the US. China doesn't have a blue water navy, so they are stuck patrolling their own shores. The two most powerful blue water navies outside of the US are the UK and Japan, our two most reliable and closest allies.
The most recent BRICS meeting demonstrates how far behind those nations are. Putin brought everyone to Russia to talk about trading in their own currencies, but the people who attended the meeting were told to bring US dollars and Euros to trade in for Rubles while they were in Russia. Pretty hilarious. The attendees weren't able to trade their currency for Rubles, at a meeting where they extolled the virtues of trading in their own currencies.
Russia Tells BRICS Summit Guests to Bring US Dollars, Euros - Business Insider

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Phat, posted 11-03-2024 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 482 of 501 (920751)
11-14-2024 3:27 PM


The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
So I checked the BBC and Al-Jazeera this morning. I've been too busy to pay much attention to the latest news.
What is Israel’s strategy in targeting Hezbollah’s civilian network?

BBC:
Israel has been hitting some of the civilian organizations linked to Hezbollah, as part of its campaign in Lebanon.
Aside from the AQAH, it has hit the Islamic Health Society (IHS), funded by Hezbollah, which operates emergency services, hospitals and medical centres across the county. It has also struck its search-and-rescue teams, killing dozens of rescue workers. Israel claims Hezbollah “is using the IHS as a cover for terrorist activities” and that those killed were carrying out military roles - but that is denied by the IHS.
With Trump in power, any alleged war crimes will likely be squashed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Rahvin, posted 11-14-2024 8:46 PM Phat has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4069
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 483 of 501 (920756)
11-14-2024 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Phat
11-14-2024 3:27 PM


Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
You mean any investigations or accusations of war crimes, along with any further calls for ceasefire or humanitarian relief.
The war crimes will increase. As hard as it is to imagine the situation getting worse, I think we're going to discover that this is due to limits on our imaginations, not on the brutality and evil of the Netanyahu-led genocide of Palestinians. And American complicity will grow.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Phat, posted 11-14-2024 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 11-17-2024 3:16 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 484 of 501 (920783)
11-17-2024 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Rahvin
11-14-2024 8:46 PM


Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
Upon reading many of the replies here, I think I see a pattern developing. I stated in another topic that the war in the Mid East has religious underpinnings from both sides.
So on one side we have Christian Nationalism(Zionism) linked up with Jewish Zionism.
Both nations are foundationally linked to arms sales, the US Dollar, and commerce.
We also have BRICS, which despite its problems is growing as a powerful competitor to the West and "our" financial interests.
On the other side we have NATO and we have the secular humanist link between non religious Americans and Europeans. Hence the Green New Deal etc etc.
All of this supports what the Christians believe is the situation in the world today between "principalities and powers". Europe is largely secular humanist and atheist. (Look at littlle Greta Greenthumb for just one example)
The political divide in the US at its core pits the humanists against the Christian Nationalist. In this prior election, the Nationalists won. No green thumb this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Rahvin, posted 11-14-2024 8:46 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Percy, posted 11-18-2024 8:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 486 by dwise1, posted 11-18-2024 1:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22954
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 485 of 501 (920784)
11-18-2024 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Phat
11-17-2024 3:16 PM


Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
That's just a goulash of dubious assertions. I wouldn't know how to begin to respond.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 11-17-2024 3:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Phat, posted 11-18-2024 1:55 PM Percy has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6077
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 486 of 501 (920789)
11-18-2024 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by Phat
11-17-2024 3:16 PM


Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
So on one side we have Christian Nationalism(Zionism) linked up with Jewish Zionism.
Both nations are foundationally linked to arms sales, the US Dollar, and commerce.
For the Christian Nationalist side, you are forgetting its origins in radical religious right (RRR -- remember back to Falwell et alia at the beginning of the first Reagan Administration). Because of my experience with the Jesus Freak Movement (c. 1970) which sparked the massive growth of fundamentalist churches into super-churches, I see Christian Nationalism's origins to be fundamentalist Christian. However, the roots for the drive to replace the Constitution with an Old Testament theocracy can be traced back to Christian Reconstructionism which was a fundamentalist Calvinist movement whose political agenda was adopted by the fundamentalists/evangelicals/crap-by-any-other-name (would stink no less) despite their enormous theological differences (eg, premillennialism v. postmillennialism).
Besides their untenable and completely unrealistic beliefs in biblical literalism and inerrancy, the most striking characteristics of the Jesus Freak iteration was their driving obsession with two things: 1) demons and 2) End Times. Although young-earth creationism was present at the time (ie, circa 1970, though it had existed since the 1920's in Seventh Day Adventism which is the source of many YEC claims), in my experience it was little more than some vague broad claims (eg, "There's evidence of the Flood" but with no specific claims) and two specific claims which were obvious nonsense (eg, "living fresh-water mollusks dated as thousands of years old" and "the NASA computer that discovered Joshua's Lost Day"); it wasn't until a decade later when I was surprised to see that nonsense was still around so, wondering what their evidence was, I started researching it more deeply and of course it all turned out to be nonsense lies -- for the more complete story, refer to my 1990 essay, Why I Oppose Creation Science (or, How I got to Here from There). And a third fundamentalist obsession was arguing that the government should be based on Biblical Law, but that didn't build up any steam until circa 1980.
The obsession with End Times and Armageddon has continued. So "Christian Nationalist" support for Israel has nothing to do with Zionism (movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland), but rather solely for the "fulfillment of prophesies" related to the End Times and in order to bring about the Second Coming by igniting war in the Middle East war centered around Armageddon (gotta keep those End Times prophesies self-fulfilled, after all).
IOW, their support for Israel has nothing to do with Zionism, with providing the Jews with a homeland, and everything to do with bringing about the end of the world. They have absolutely no interest in finding any solution to tensions in the Middle East, but rather they are obsessed with making the situation there worse and worse, eagerly (nay, zealously) waiting for war to break out.
And if they are able to make money manufacturing and selling arms, then that's just icing on the cake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 11-17-2024 3:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Phat, posted 11-18-2024 1:48 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18655
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 487 of 501 (920791)
11-18-2024 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by dwise1
11-18-2024 1:08 PM


Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
dwise1 writes:
The obsession with End Times and Armageddon has continued. So "Christian Nationalist" support for Israel has nothing to do with Zionism (movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland), but rather solely for the "fulfillment of prophesies" related to the End Times and in order to bring about the Second Coming by igniting war in the Middle East war centered around Armageddon (gotta keep those End Times prophesies self-fulfilled, after all).

IOW, their support for Israel has nothing to do with Zionism, with providing the Jews with a homeland, and everything to do with bringing about the end of the world. They have absolutely no interest in finding any solution to tensions in the Middle East, but rather they are obsessed with making the situation there worse and worse, eagerly (nay, zealously) waiting for war to break out.

And if they are able to make money manufacturing and selling arms, then that's just icing on the cake.
You are right.(though not far-right ) In fact, I believe in a spiritual war of sorts myself. Now that Mike Huckabee has been appointed as the ambassador to Israel, we may have created or allowed a self-fulfilling prophecy situation to commence. There needs to be a balance between the belief that a majority of a country has and the rationality at the top. Take Iran, for example. A clear Theocracy. How about Israel?
Percy once commented on this very thing. Message 23
quote:
In a way, Hamas, as well as Fatah and Hezbollah, are the creation of Israel. They only exist in their current form as mostly military organizations opposed to Israel's existence because Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians, which only perpetuates an unending cycle of violence. Just as the Serbs and Croatians fight battles over wrongs from centuries ago, the Israelis and the Palestinians are marching down a similar path. Who would find it surprising if in 2452 when Israel punishes Gaza yet again that they cite as one of their reasons the Hamas incursion of several centuries before in 2023? (...)If any single individual is responsible for the Hamas attack on Israel it is Benjamin Netanyahu. His hard line stance on Palestinians made their situation intolerable. The answer is not ever greater security and ever increasing military power. The answer is to make peace with their neighbors, and that work begins at home by treating Palestinians as human beings.

Israel is not our ally because we admire their morality and humanity. They are our ally because they occupy a strategic location in the Middle East. A less moral and humane ally we could not have.

Percy:
It was the modern state of Israel that displaced the Palestinian people, who bear some significant responsibility for their plight due to their refusal to negotiate. The formation of a Jewish state was anathema to them. They refused to even consider the possibility and so declined to participate in the process.
​(...)Israel must (though they won't, at least not while Netanyahu or anyone like him is prime minister) accept responsibility for their part in creating the ongoing mess...(...)Can I imagine that when Netanyahu goes to Temple, his prayer goes something like this: "Thank you, oh YHWH, for bestowing the blessing of success on our recent destruction of Palestinian hospitals and neighborhoods."

And now we have Mike Huckabee as ambassador to Israel.
Here are some historic Huckabee quotes:
  • "I'm beginning to think there's more freedom in North Korea sometimes than there is in the United States."
  • I'm not a Republican because I grew up rich, but because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life poor, waiting for the government to rescue me.
  • The most powerful demonstration of leadership is not a clenched fist of brute force but an open hand of humble assistance.
  • There is a difference between people who are educated and people who are smart.
  • I'm not ashamed of the things I believe and why I believe them.
  • "It seems like we're spending billions of dollars on whiz-bang technology and not enough money on human resources, which really is proven to be the most effective way of stopping terrorism." ~ Mike Huckabee

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 486 by dwise1, posted 11-18-2024 1:08 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18655
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 4.4


    Message 488 of 501 (920792)
    11-18-2024 1:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 485 by Percy
    11-18-2024 8:29 AM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    I never make good posts when I am in a hurry. My last post(to dwise1) was more of a summation. Perhaps you can respond to that.
    So far as we know, is Mike Huckabee a good choice for Israeli Ambassador?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 485 by Percy, posted 11-18-2024 8:29 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 489 by Percy, posted 11-18-2024 7:04 PM Phat has replied
     Message 490 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2024 8:14 PM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22954
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 7.1


    (1)
    Message 489 of 501 (920794)
    11-18-2024 7:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 488 by Phat
    11-18-2024 1:55 PM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    Phat writes in Message 488:
    So far as we know, is Mike Huckabee a good choice for Israeli Ambassador?
    I don't think it represents a change. The Biden administration strongly supported Israel, and so will the Trump administration.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 488 by Phat, posted 11-18-2024 1:55 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 500 by Phat, posted 11-26-2024 9:42 PM Percy has not replied

      
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 2341
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004
    Member Rating: 7.9


    Message 490 of 501 (920795)
    11-18-2024 8:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 488 by Phat
    11-18-2024 1:55 PM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    is an evangelical christian good for israel? no.

    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
    soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
    Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
    Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
    All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
    And so there was only one thing I could do
    Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
    Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
    Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
    *not an actual doctor

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 488 by Phat, posted 11-18-2024 1:55 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 491 by Phat, posted 11-19-2024 9:38 AM DrJones* has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18655
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 4.4


    Message 491 of 501 (920796)
    11-19-2024 9:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 490 by DrJones*
    11-18-2024 8:14 PM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    Why should a mans personal beliefs disqualify him from a professional job?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 490 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2024 8:14 PM DrJones* has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 492 by dwise1, posted 11-19-2024 2:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 493 by Taq, posted 11-19-2024 5:00 PM Phat has not replied

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 6077
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 7.3


    (2)
    Message 492 of 501 (920797)
    11-19-2024 2:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 491 by Phat
    11-19-2024 9:38 AM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    Why should a mans personal beliefs disqualify him from a professional job?
    It shouldn't, unless that individual fails/refuses to conduct himself in a professional manner.
    One of the key traits that the military teaches is professionalism:
    quote:
    Professionalism is a set of standards that an individual is expected to adhere to in a workplace, usually in order to appear serious, uniform, or respectful. What constitutes professionalism is hotly debated and varies from workplace to workplace and between cultures. Professionalism is typically defined as a mix of professional ethics and dress code.
    Definition
    Common traits of a "professional" person include:
    • integrity
    • punctuality
    • reliability
    • organization skills
    • emotional intelligence
    • appropriate dress

    The aspect of professionalism that I am referring to is doing your job to the best of your ability regardless of personal feelings or prejudices.
    For example, the military is organized in units and subunits with particular missions. Those units with support missions provide services to other units. And within each unit are subunits with specific jobs supporting other subunits, etc.
    All interactions are expected to be professional, meaning that we work together with mutual respect and without involving personal feelings or animosities.
    DrJones*' remark was:
    DrJones* writes in Message 490:
    is an evangelical christian good for israel? no.
    Evangelical Christians supports Israel solely for the purpose of bringing about the End Times ... as well as in hope of fulfilling Martin Luther's dream of converting the Jews to Christianity (he had started out defending the Jews against traditional anti-Semitism, but in hope of converting them; when he failed in that endeavor he became a virulent anti-Semite). They care nothing for Israel nor for ensuring its future nor for working towards a peaceful solution to the problems in the Middle East. Rather, they just want to help end the world and so will work against peaceful solutions.
    In order to act professionally in the job Mike Huckabee is being put up for, an evangelical Christian would need to put aside his personal evangelical Christian agenda of sabotaging peace in the Middle East and instead work towards peace.
    How many evangelical Christians would have the ability to act professionally in that job? Not many.
    So what about Mike Huckabee? Here's what Wikipedia says of his position on Israel and Palestine:
    quote:
    Israel & Palestine
    Huckabee is a strong supporter of Israel, opposing Palestinian statehood and rejecting Palestinian identity. Huckabee has also condoned West Bank settlements which are illegal under international law. In 2008, Huckabee argued that there is "no such thing as a Palestinian". In 2017, at an event in the West Bank, he stated: "There is no such thing as a West Bank - it's Judea and Samaria. There's no such thing as a settlement. They're communities. They're neighborhoods. They're cities. There's no such thing as an occupation."

    'Nuff said?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 491 by Phat, posted 11-19-2024 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 10304
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 7.3


    (1)
    Message 493 of 501 (920798)
    11-19-2024 5:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 491 by Phat
    11-19-2024 9:38 AM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    Phat writes:
    Why should a mans personal beliefs disqualify him from a professional job?
    First, it's a political appointment, so politics matters. If someone vocally expressed their belief that Canada should be nuked I think that would disqualify them from being ambassador to Canada. Just sayin'.
    The main question is if Huckabee will act on those personal beliefs in a way that threaten US interests since his job is all about US interests abroad. Ultimately, this is going to be judged by President Trump, and subsequently by the media and US populace. I think Huckabee is going to be more of a mouthpiece than a policy setter, so it may not matter that much in the end. You usually have lifers within the State Department that oversee long term policy under the Sec of State and political appointees that serve as the face of the administration.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 491 by Phat, posted 11-19-2024 9:38 AM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 494 by dwise1, posted 11-20-2024 11:48 AM Taq has replied

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 6077
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 7.3


    Message 494 of 501 (920807)
    11-20-2024 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 493 by Taq
    11-19-2024 5:00 PM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    You usually have lifers within the State Department that oversee long term policy under the Sec of State and political appointees that serve as the face of the administration.
    What State Dept lifers with years of experience working on behalf of the country? Not after 20 Jan 2025 when Trump reinstates his Schedule F plan to purge highly competent civil servants (AKA "the Deep State" which really is nothing more than non-partisan career civil servants loyal to country and charged with following the law as they keep the government working) with incompetent toadies whose only necessary requirement is complete personal loyalty to Trump.
    And indeed having long-term policies is very important in diplomacy. Instead, our policies will depend entirely on whoever was the last to blow in Trump's ear (whom he will then follow anywhere). Or on the latest bribe regardless of what he had been bribed to support previously (the size of those bribes being a factor, of course).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 493 by Taq, posted 11-19-2024 5:00 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 495 by Taq, posted 11-20-2024 3:14 PM dwise1 has replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 10304
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 7.3


    Message 495 of 501 (920808)
    11-20-2024 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 494 by dwise1
    11-20-2024 11:48 AM


    Re: The Latest News From The Mid-East Wars
    dwise1 writes:
    What State Dept lifers with years of experience working on behalf of the country? Not after 20 Jan 2025 when Trump reinstates his Schedule F plan to purge highly competent civil servants (AKA "the Deep State" which really is nothing more than non-partisan career civil servants loyal to country and charged with following the law as they keep the government working) with incompetent toadies whose only necessary requirement is complete personal loyalty to Trump.
    I have a feeling that Trump has been more bluster than substance, but we will see. I know Project 2025 is all about installing commissars, but I think that takes more effort and attention than the Trump administration has available.
    And indeed having long-term policies is very important in diplomacy. Instead, our policies will depend entirely on whoever was the last to blow in Trump's ear (whom he will then follow anywhere). Or on the latest bribe regardless of what he had been bribed to support previously (the size of those bribes being a factor, of course).
    That's what worries me the most.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 494 by dwise1, posted 11-20-2024 11:48 AM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 496 by dwise1, posted 11-20-2024 6:50 PM Taq has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024