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Author | Topic: State Execution in the USA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes: I'm surprising myself by being angry, ashamed and upset even from this distance - a modern democratic country is murdering its own citizens and in such a half-arsed way.[ The UK had the most barbaric capital punishment method I could think of until the middle of the 18th century and that was burning at the stake. The punishment for heresy was burning at the stake in the end of the 16th century. That was simply because they believed differently than the Church of England.Just a reminder of your countries ways. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Paul,
AZPaul writes: If your catechism were true then you just told your master you don't believe him and will not follow in his wake. I simply asked a question, why didn't you give me an answer to the question. You could have given me a reason they should not give their life in return? How about an answer? In other words give me a reason they should not give their life for taking a life. You know me I like to ask questions. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4069 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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quote: Suddenly? Phat, you know full well that the debate over the death penalty has been ongoing for a very long time. There's a reason that not all states still use it. More than one reason, actually. And what on earth do you mean that it's "not a big deal?" It's a pretty damned big deal for the person being executed. It's a big deal for their family, and loved ones. Perhaps you should read my signature quotes, and consider their implications for my position on wars and the death penalty. Those positions haven't changed much in my lifetime. At most I've been educated on more places to apply those principles.“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Nihil supernum
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4069 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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quote: The word "had" is important, ICANT. It happened in the past. They decided to change as a society, and be better. Some American states decided the same thing - to change, and be better.“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Nihil supernum
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ICANT Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: Does anyone know how much that costs? Why should society pay to keep them alive? $75,000 per year. That is enough to build a house for a homeless person. Or to feed four families for a year. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6
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In other words give me a reason they should not give their life for taking a life. They maybe should. But in a prison not a grave.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
OK I get it. Society should pay more to incarcerate these people than we do for legitimate homeless people or even ordinary citizens. Its all too easy to pass legislation with other peoples money, isnt it.
All just to keep a guy alive. Some life he has.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6
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Society should pay more to incarcerate these people than we do for legitimate homeless people or even ordinary citizens. Except it is cheaper to jail someone than to kill them. https://www.amnestyusa.org/...nalty-facts/death-penalty-cost
quote: quote: I slaved for all of 30 seconds searching the internet. You could have done the same before posting your errant confusion.
All just to keep a guy alive. Some life he has. He has a good life compared with the alternative which is none.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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ICANT Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi AZ,
AZPaul3 writes: They maybe should. But in a prison not a grave. But they sentenced the person they killed to the grave and they didn't get a jury trial. They had a one person judge, jury, and executioner. So why should the murder get to live and his victim has to die? Had the murder not executed his victim they would have got to live. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6
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So why should the murder get to live and his victim has to die? The victim does not have to die. The victim is already dead. That is the problem. What to do with the killer? Most enlightened states know that your kind of religious retribution is barbaric and have thrown off the religious death cults. That you can't see/support why is a betrayal of your boss. You, apparently, do not believe your religion.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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ICANT Member (Idle past 286 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Rahvin,
Long time we no speak. At the bottom of your signature is a quote from the KJV Bible. Do you believe that verse and what it is talking about or is it just there for the words recorded in the KJV Bible. If you have never read the four verses preceding it I will supply them for you. That way you can know what is being discussed.
Paul writes: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I know 'had' is an important word. But not only did they have the most barbaric, burning at the stake, I think the also had one of the most humane executions using beheading. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
To be frank I'm surprised that the focus has been entirely on the method and not on whether you guys should really be murdering your own citizens with malice and forethought in any way at all. Tangle, Reading through this discussion should give you a small feel for the kind and depth of stupid we have to deal with on this side of the pond. Religion still has its evil talons ahold of our hearts. Unfortunately, that kind of blind religious stupidity infests our politics a well. We're in trouble over here, Tangle. Pray for us.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6077 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Reading through this discussion should give you a small feel for the kind and depth of stupid we have to deal with on this side of the pond. Religion still has its evil talons ahold of our hearts. Unfortunately, that kind of blind religious stupidity infests our politics a well. Half a century ago, I attended a university (well, state college at the time, but a couple years later we became a state university) class in Rabbinic Literature (ie, primarily Talmud) which was taught by a rabbi. I learned a lot in that class and still cherish what I had learned. Nearly a decade later, at the insistence of my wife before the birth of our first son, I also took a class in Development Psychology (in Piagetian manner, we studied stages of development based on observations that children go through stages of development before which certain kinds of reasoning is beyond them (eg, conservation in which the same amount of liquid is poured from a short glass to a tall glass and, before being able to handle this concept, they say the tall glass contains more liquid) ). The textbook included a chapter on the development of moral reasoning (oddly not covered in class) in which the first stage is rules-based morality in which some authority sets some arbitrary rules and right-vs-wrong is based solely on whether or not you follow those arbitrary rules. In rules-based morality, if any harm befalls someone because you followed the rules, then that is the responsibility of the rules-giver, not yours. This was examined in the infamous Milgram experiment (that everybody knows about but doesn't remember the name) in which "teachers" in a "learning experiment" adminstered electric shocks of increasing severity, including ones labeled suggestively as lethal, on a "student" (a confederate of the experiment) who complains of a heart condition, but the "teacher" presses on on the authority of an authority figure, even after the "student" becomes ominously silent (AKA dead). Refer also to the independent film, The Experimenter, on some independent streaming services (and sometimes on cable). The next stage of moral development comes on around 6 years of age or so, in which they start to look at the motives of the "violation" (eg, the stealing of a loaf of bread to feed one's starving family, the driving crime of Les Miserables). The rub is that most Christians are stuck back in the pre-school stage of "an authority says so, so that's how it must be and if anything goes wrong as a result, it's not my fault but rather the fault of that authority." Rules-based morality. My Rabbinic Lit professor taught us about Jewish morality. Basically, Jews are obligated to obey the Law. But when obeying the Law will result in the loss of a life, then you save that life even if it requires violating the Law. Contrast that with Christian "morality". Two or three decades ago I heard the news of a law case in which the parents of a young child were tried for criminal neglect because they had withheld from him vitally needed medical treatment due to their Christian beliefs in faith healing. Their child had died from a form of meningitis that was easily treated with antibiotics, but that violated their religious beliefs so they let him die. And at their sentencing, they stated that if the exact same situation were to arise with their next child, then they would act in the exact same manner, their faith was so strong. My own son died young, so I know extremely personally how devastating the death of a child can be for a parent (two and a half decades later, when will I recover? Any day now.). And yet their faith is so strong that they would sacrifice the life of their own child for it? How sick! That is a very telling difference between Christian and Jewish morality. Christian morality is strictly rules-based. "God" give us these rules (even ones that do not exist anywhere in the Bible, such as forbidding abortion -- the only mention of abortion in the Bible is to mandate it if you think your wife is carrying someone else's baby and, OBTW, here are the instructions for performing that abortion). And in the name of such extra-Biblical "laws" Christians mandate anti-abortion laws which directly place women's lives in mortal danger for no good reason. IOW, Christianity has their Christian God demand human sacrifice. And a blood sacrifice to boot (since the women suffering under such laws are bleeding out into many diapers as they sit in their cars in the hospital's parking lot waiting to be near enough to death to finally be treated). In Judaism, if the question is between the life of the fetus or of the mother, then you choose for the mother. Clearly, Judaism is far more morally superior to Christianity. So what is the status of capital punishment in Israel?
According to Wikipedia:
quote:
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Omnivorous Member (Idle past 133 days) Posts: 4001 From: Adirondackia Joined:
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ICANT writes: How about an answer? In other words give me a reason they should not give their life for taking a life. Because we are human: fallible, prone to rages of vengeance and unjust convictions. In recent decades, hundreds of death row inmates were exonerated. In many if not most of those cases, years-long legal battles kept innocent people alive long enough to be freed, while the state worked furiously to kill them. The numbers on death row, and the numbers exonerated, suggest 1 in 8 death row prisoners are innocent. In the U.S., it is incontrovertible that we knowingly execute innocent people. We know this reign of terror is fed by police misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct, impoverished defendants, and the politicalization of the judiciary: they serve up a heaping helping of convictions corrupted by racial bias, misconduct, incompetence and political ambition. Both state and federal forensic labs have been rocked by scandals of fraudulent findings in favor of the prosecution. The state cannot be trusted with the power of life and death. Faith in spiritual beliefs unevidenced to others is your internal affair. Faith in the rightness of killing another human being, knowing it entails a tithe of innocent blood, is a moral horror that should be resisted by any person of conscience. I would rather pay for humane incarceration than dip my hands in the blood you are so eager to spill. Edited by Omnivorous, : -of Edited by Omnivorous, . "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
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Percy Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
ICANT in Message 11 writes: If the life of a person is removed by a person why should that person not need to pay for that life with their own? Just to be clear, you're saying that the taking of a life is wrong and that the punishment should involve the taking of another life. --Percy
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