I proposed the concept that the convicted capital offender be given the option - "As things currently sit, you are going to die in prison. We offer you the choice of when such happens."
A prisoner's dilemma of another sort ...
I strongly support the right to time one's exit -- so strongly that I hesitate to add 'especially from an intolerable life', because a right whose every exercise requires prior approval is no right at all.
But I would worry about the penal system's power to make misery drive the prisoner's decision.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto. -Terence
The Great Emptying of state mental health hospitals of the late 20th century, ostensibly about the patients' liberty rights but more about Reagan era concern for your wallet, Phat, hastened the metamorphosis of patients to prisoners.
quote:This is one of those places we seem to disagree on. To me salvation is simple and easy.
As you know, I'm not a Christian. I used to be, but not for a long time now. I don't care about Bible verses that call for supernaturalism, including what Christians really mean when they say "salvation." It amuses me sometimes to use the language of Christianity when talking to religious people. When I referred to salvation, I was referring to "being a better person."
Everyone makes bad decisions. A Christian might say, "for all fall short of the glory of god." I would simply say that none of us are perfectly moral. We all do things or benefit from systems that hurt other people, even if that's not what we want or intend. And sometimes we intentionally hurt each other.
But just like a child who punched his sibling, making a mistake doesn't mean we are permanently broken. We can learn to be better.
We stumble and fall on the road to being better people, just like kids do. My goal with criminal justice is not to punish the criminal. My goal is to help people who made mistakes become better people.
I acknowledge that you didn't personally say that people should die. It's simply a thread about capital punishment.
Your proposal that a person convicted of murder should be made to labor under confinement to support the family of the victims is judicially-sentenced slavery, ICANT. I can't support that. Slavery is another evil stain on the world, and making it a criminal sentence (the exception in the 13th Amendment) makes it no less a stain. It's another opportunity for us to be better.
Edited by Rahvin, : Judicially, not judiciously.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)
To me referring to becoming a better person is sanctification. That is you study good things and allow the good things to take over your life pushing the bad things out thus becoming more like Christ was.
I can't support that. Slavery is another evil stain on the world, and making it a criminal sentence (the exception in the 13th Amendment) makes it no less a stain. It's another opportunity for us to be better.
I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims. I could have done as they did, by taking money from some poor jerk or an old widow woman and went to jail for it. I could have enjoyed three meals a day, free medical attention, a sex change if I chose too, a little time outside shooting the breeze, maybe playing a little basketball, then going back inside and watching a movie or TV, playing cards, chess, checkers, or reading a book. I could have done that for 5,10, 0r more years and then been released. Now I have spent all that time in prison and done nothing but maybe put on a little muscle. I have no job experience for all that time as I did not work. So how do I make a living? I go back to doing what I know how to do until they catch me again.
So which person would be better off when they get out of prison if they do? One who had been in my prison where he had learned a trade, carpenter, Plummer. electrician, drywall finisher, cabinet maker, or some other trade? Or one who comes out of our prison system today having learned nothing not even work ethics? In other words he/she is no more equipted to exist in the real world than before he/she went to jail.
Every body is a slave to something or somebody. Alcoholic is a slave to alcohol. Drug addict a slave to drugs. A 9 to 5 worker is a slave to his/her boss. A slave on my Great, Great Grandfathers farm. When the slaves were were set free and he told them they were free to go anywhere they wanted to go. They said go where. He said anywhere you want to go or you can stay here and do they same things you have been doing since you came here. Everyone chose to stay. Each family had their own house, and a plot for a garden. He furnished all the equipment, fertilizer, animals, and land. They furnished the labor and when the harvest was in they received half of the proceeds.
I bet you have never had a deal that was that good. Have you ever worked for a company that furnished the workers a house and gave the workers half of the proceeds?
So, Rahvin explain to me why I had to slave to support my family and also support those criminals who were too lazy to work and wanted other people to support them and their habits. Then they ended up in jail and we had to keep supporting them and their habits.
I don't see where that is fair to my wife and children.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
quote:To me referring to becoming a better person is sanctification. That is you study good things and allow the good things to take over your life pushing the bad things out thus becoming more like Christ was.
We have different definitions for "good," but in general there are similarities. I pay most attention to the impacts of actions - were people helped, were people hurt, and not only from my immediate actions, but down the chain of causality as best I can determine. Comparisons to a religious figure aren't so relevant to me as a former Christian. Some parts still resonate. "Love thy neighbor" is a call for empathy, and I think that empathy for others, especially those not typically included in "thy neighbor," is the heart of morality. The parable of the Good Samaritan was a good one.
quote:I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims.
No you didn't, and yes you did. You were a slave of capitalism, made to work for money to sustain yourself and your family, and your employer(s) had greater power than you in determining the time, place and manner of your work, and your compensation for that work. That's similar to but different from slavery, where an authority has total control over your actions and can issue punishments beyond firing you.
In prison-slavery, you can be forced to work. Refusal brings an increased sentence, or punishment in the form of solitary confinement. Possibly other consequences as well. You don't have the ability to seek an alternative job. You have no negotiation power at all regarding your treatment or compensation. You obey or face punishment until you obey.
The government "took your money" because, if we are going to incarcerate people against their will, we take responsibility for them. That means it's our responsibility to give them food and medical care and shelter, because we have taken away their choice to do anything else.
If you want to save money on criminal justice, then your should align your views with mine. The countries that prioritize positive treatment and rehabilitation spend less money on their justice systems than we do. A lot less. They have lower repeat-offense rates, less time in prison, and they do more work-release programs where a person can serve time but also maintain their employment and positive social connections while incarcerated. This is one of the cases where doing the nice, better thing is also the cheaper, and more effective thing.
The only reasons we have our current system is because Americans focus on punishment and vindictiveness rather than rehabilitation, and the growing prison-industrial complex that has a positive feedback loop of increasing incarceration rates to generate profit through slave labor.
quote:So, Rahvin explain to me why I had to slave to support my family and also support those criminals who were too lazy to work and wanted other people to support them and their habits. Then they ended up in jail and we had to keep supporting them and their habits.
Didn't Jesus command you to go to the prisons and comfort the prisoners? Would he have approved of a system that hurts people for the sake of hurting them, rather than focusing on forgiveness and rehabilitation? He might not have cared about the monetary aspect, but when Jesus and your tax bill can both be happier, why should we focus so hard on expensive punishment that only increases suffering?
I've been the victim of a few crimes, including domestic violence. I didn't want the person to be sent to jail. I wanted them to get help. I didnt think the person was lazy - they had some very unfortunate things happen in their life, most of which was out of their control. What they needed was support, not punishment.
quote:A slave on my Great, Great Grandfathers farm. When the slaves were were set free and he told them they were free to go anywhere they wanted to go. They said go where. He said anywhere you want to go or you can stay here and do they same things you have been doing since you came here. Everyone chose to stay. Each family had their own house, and a plot for a garden. He furnished all the equipment, fertilizer, animals, and land. They furnished the labor and when the harvest was in they received half of the proceeds.
I cannot explain in words how hard I cringe reading that. Your great great grandfather owned humans as property, and then when the law forced him to free them, they had nowhere to go, so he "generously allowed them" to continue working for his benefit. You seem to think this reflects positively on your ancestor. It does not.
“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)
I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims.
The government takes care of victims? Who knew!
I worked as a slave for 65 years making money that the government took from me to spend taking care of the criminals and their victims. I could have done as they did, by taking money from some poor jerk or an old widow woman and went to jail for it. I could have enjoyed three meals a day, free medical attention, a sex change if I chose too, a little time outside shooting the breeze, maybe playing a little basketball, then going back inside and watching a movie or TV, playing cards, chess, checkers, or reading a book. I could have done that for 5,10, 0r more years and then been released. Now I have spent all that time in prison and done nothing but maybe put on a little muscle. I have no job experience for all that time as I did not work. So how do I make a living? I go back to doing what I know how to do until they catch me again.
Gee, you make prison sound like a swell time, and you didn't even have to mention conjugal visits!
So, Rahvin explain to me why I had to slave to support my family and also support those criminals who were too lazy to work and wanted other people to support them and their habits. Then they ended up in jail and we had to keep supporting them and their habits.
So you want the government to remove criminals from society so that they can no longer prey upon its citizens, but you don't want to pay for it. Was it okay that they used tax money for roads and bridges and schools and so forth, or don't you want to pay for that, either?
So you want the government to remove criminals from society so that they can no longer prey upon its citizens, but you don't want to pay for it. Was it okay that they used tax money for roads and bridges and schools and so forth, or don't you want to pay for that, either?
He sounds like one of them so-called "libertarians" who want all the benefits they can get from the government, but they don't want to pay for them. Kind of sounds like the "welfare queens" he complains about.
In this previous season of Fargo, Jon Hamm plays the antagonist, a constitutional sheriff (far-right wing "libertarian" law "enforcement" who contend that state and federal government is subordinate to them). The association linked to above was founded in 2011 by a board member of the Oath Keepers, one of the organizations serving as Trump's de facto Sturmabteilung (SA).
In this scene, a powerful businesswoman and mother-in-law of Hamm's previous wife (who had run away 11 years prior to escape the abuse, beatings, and eventual killing and dumping into the hidden pit next to her predecessor) meets with Hamm, where she tells him what kind of person wants all the freedom and none of the responsibility: a baby.
Was it okay that they used tax money for roads and bridges and schools and so forth, or don't you want to pay for that, either?
I have driven over 2 million miles on those highways and bridges, and they are much better than the dirt roads and pig trails I drover over before they built them.
I went to school for 16 years with no tuition and was transported to and from school to my home.
I still pay taxes on fuel to build roads and bridges. In fact in our last local election we voted to increase our road tax, which I supported.
I also pay land tax that includes a school tax and we also increased the millage on that.
So no Percy I don't have a problem with paying for those things or our work welfare programs.
I just don't like to pay for free loaders who do not work for anything. But those who are not able to work I would give the shirt off my back and have, so to speak.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Was it okay that they used tax money for roads and bridges and schools and so forth, or don't you want to pay for that, either?
I have driven over 2 million miles on those highways and bridges, and they are much better than the dirt roads and pig trails I drover over before they built them.
I went to school for 16 years with no tuition and was transported to and from school to my home.
I still pay taxes on fuel to build roads and bridges. In fact in our last local election we voted to increase our road tax, which I supported.
I also pay land tax that includes a school tax and we also increased the millage on that.
So no Percy I don't have a problem with paying for those things or our work welfare programs.
I just don't like to pay for free loaders who do not work for anything. But those who are not able to work I would give the shirt off my back and have, so to speak.
Interesting. So how would a system work where people select which government agencies and programs they're willing to fund with their tax money? Don't we already have such a system where *our* elected representatives decide how to spend *our* tax money?
No it's not. It's called, "Something ICANT made up."
I did not make up our welfare system.
Certainly! When a woman’s spouse is incarcerated, there are government programs and resources available to assist her and her children during this challenging time. Here are some avenues for financial support:
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF): This program provides financial aid to families with children who are unable to meet their basic needs. It can help cover expenses such as food, housing, and other essential costs1. Housing Assistance: The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development offers reduced rents for public housing and apartments. Families in need can explore these options to secure affordable housing1 Child Care Assistance Program: If the incarcerated parent’s absence affects child-care costs, this program can help cover child-care expenses for low-income families1. Insurance Coverage: Each state has different criteria, but many states have programs that assist low-income families with insurance coverage. It’s essential to check the specific programs available in your state1. Child Support: Even if the spouse is incarcerated, the woman can file a petition for child support against the child’s parent. This legal process ensures that financial support is provided for the well-being of the children2. Charities and Community Organizations: Various charities, synagogues, and churches offer additional assistance. They may provide clothing, shelter, food, job training, literacy programs, and transportation for visitation purposes1.
I'm in favor of anything that works. Are there any countries in the world where something along these lines is being employed?
We top the list. United States: Work programs operate in 88% of U.S. prisons, employing approximately 775,000 prisoners. Most inmates are involved in support and maintenance roles, such as delivering mail, washing dishes, and doing laundry1. Japan: Labor is required of all prisoners in Japan, but they have some flexibility in choosing the type of work they perform1. Germany: In German prisons, inmates have the “opportunity” to work or undergo vocational training. The output of these factories is sold outside the prison. Working allows prisoners to earn a small salary, which can be spent on “luxuries” like coffee. Completing vocational training and working quietly can positively impact parole board decisions2. Council of Europe Member States: A survey found that in 25 out of 40 member states, prisoners are required to work under certain circumstances3. It’s important to note that the approach to prison labor can vary significantly, and some countries emphasize rehabilitation and skill-building through work programs, while others may have more punitive systems.
But none of those as extensive as my proposal of going into the manufacturing business.
If I remember correctly one of the wardens in Texas had his inmates farming and producing all of the food for his prison back in the 70's, an someone complained and a judge ruled he had to stop.
Don't we already have such a system where *our* elected representatives decide how to spend *our* tax money?
What makes you think they spend my money how I like. Not one has ever ask me how I wanted them to spend my money. Has any ask you?
They make all kinds of promises to get elected and then do whatever they want to with our money. Like build a bridge to nowhere. Or to do some pet projects for another congressman to get him to vote for their pet projects. You know a trillion here and a trillion there and eventually you have a national debt of 33.1 trillion dollars. That is about $94,000 per citizen.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
I don't see where that is fair to my wife and children.
Life ain't fair, Rev.
It's not fair to be a victim of crime. It's also unfair to grow up in a society that locks you into poverty and thwarts normal human growth and ambitions. It's unfair that the (rich) evil prosper.
See Job. Then take it up with your god.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto. -Terence
I'm in favor of anything that works. Are there any countries in the world where something along these lines is being employed?
We top the list. United States: Work programs operate in 88% of U.S. prisons
I asked you if any country in the world is providing something along the lines of what you described and you cite the United States, the very country you just said you didn't like how they did things. This is contradictory.
Don't we already have such a system where *our* elected representatives decide how to spend *our* tax money?
What makes you think they spend my money how I like.
You just cited the U.S. as a top performer. You're being contradictory again.
Not one has ever ask me how I wanted them to spend my money.
That's not how representative government works. In addition to your vote there are many opportunities to provide feedback to your representatives, sometimes even in person.
That's not how representative government works. In addition to your vote there are many opportunities to provide feedback to your representatives, sometimes even in person.
He doesn't want to solve anything, he just wants to bitch about it.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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