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Author Topic:   Who Owns the Standard Definition of Evolution
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 13 of 695 (914884)
02-06-2024 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 4:15 PM


Can anyone provide a concise definition of Evolution, one that would find concurrence amongst most/all serious evolutionists, and one against which all descriptions of Evolution should be calibrated?
No. There is a very consistent set of definitions across the discipline but no one definition is cut into the marble and etched in gold.
Read Ernst W. Mayr. Learn that name. He has defined evolution many times in many ways.
... but I'm looking for a more technically-based definition.
Why? You looking for something to rant and rail against?
This is my own hi-level understanding of Evolution.
As you can see from the responses your understanding leaves a lot still to be learned. Understanding evolution at anything but the pop-culture soundbite level takes years of study. Takes a lot of work to understand the numerous processes involved in biological evolution. Most on here have been at this for decades.
What do you hope to learn, find, achieve with this question? How can we help?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 4:15 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 23 of 695 (914906)
02-06-2024 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 7:07 PM


In the Science discipline a Theory is a hypothesis ...
Bad start.
Theory is the umbrella term used to house all the documented evidence for the various operations of a proven studied process. A hypothesis is something totally different. Hypothesis is but a guess yet to be tested. Evolution is philosophically way beyond the hypothesis point. It is held by the preponderance of the evidence. That means the evidence is too overwhelming for the conclusion to be wrong. Not having studied the subject I’m thinking you are yet unaware of just how much proof of evolution the world holds. If you are trying to say that “evolution is not science so it’s not proven so it's not real” then I’m afraid that discussion was settled decades ago. That side lost, big time.
Also, your view of ‘replication’ in science is way off-base. Science does not require physical replication of long-ago historical events but only replication (consensus) of a study’s conclusions. Lots of different guys looking at the the same old rocks and drawing the same conclusions. The combination of physical evidence from the lab and the consensus that the old historical non-reproducible data is interpreted properly is all the evidence necessary for a scientific theory.
Evolution has risen to be one of the most evidenced theories ever devised by man. If you want to discuss the various processes and what the evidence shows then fine, ask away. If you want to claim our understanding is wrong and The Extended Evolutionary Synthesis is bogus, then there is nothing to discuss. You already lost.
Incidentally, one expert (Mr. Mayr) defining Evolution many times in many ways is a nullification of rather than an endorsement of Evolution as a coherent hypothesis.
That's because you don't understand the history behind those ever improving definitions.
You do not seem to have the knowledge to understand science or evolution. How can you debate when so unarmed? Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:07 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-06-2024 9:03 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 29 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 9:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 28 of 695 (914912)
02-06-2024 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 7:34 PM


The mutation into a superior, more complex, or wholly different life form that manages to exist and procreate and evolve further. Do we understand this process well enough to define it, is re-creatable, or at least observable?
Yes we understand genetics and pretty much all it's processes. We can see the genes, know what they do, what happens when a gene breaks and how/why such can mutate.
We know this so well we know, with certainty, how the individual molecules and atoms behave in the process your DNA uses to replicate. Every bond, every atom.
You have heard of genetically modified foods. Genetic alteration of genes in stem cells implanted to control disease.
Yes, we know this stuff.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 7:34 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 9:20 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 32 of 695 (914919)
02-06-2024 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 8:58 PM


If descent with modification is the simple rule, how is this rule substantiated?
What substantiated? Every farmer in forever knows this. You say you have seen evidence. You didn't understand it? It was not in the right format? What substantiated? Your kids almost, but not quite, look like you. Not every puppy in the liter is a clone. I think that 'descent with modification' is well substantiated.
If you want to discuss how this 'modification' takes place then take a look first at meiosis of the germline cells then at mutation vectors. We can go from there.
Also, realize that Evolution works on populations not individuals. You will want to understand the concept of a gene pool and allele frequency within that pool. You can't adequately discuss anything evolution without these concepts in place.
I have seen a great deal of supporting data for this Evolution process, all of it pictures and explanations, and none of it the type of hard, repeatable data demanded by the Scientific Method.
You're looking at the wrong data or misinterpreting what you see or expect to see. Common with highly complex systems when a person's knowledge is limited and wrong. First understand that evolution is not a process but hundreds of processes in unison and in conflict, creating both life and death.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 8:58 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by K.Rose, posted 02-07-2024 8:08 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 33 of 695 (914920)
02-06-2024 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 9:18 PM


Overwhelming preponderance of evidence" is what I hear quite often. And if there is such a preponderance then there must be at least one clear, demonstrative example that even the most ignorant of laymen can understand. Do you know of such an example?
What are you talking about? The preponderance is formed by many thousands, millions, of data points. Chart populations over time. The changes in allele frequency is a major process in evolution. It is the conglomeration of the data that is overwhelming, not any single data point. If you want to see a single data point for evolution take a look in the mirror then get yourself a statistics class and study population dynamics. And study nested hierarchies. They are vital in understanding descent in evolution.
What did you expect to see? New animals pop into existence? What are you looking for that would show you evolution?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 9:18 PM K.Rose has not replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 34 of 695 (914921)
02-06-2024 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 9:20 PM


Genetically modified corn is still corn.
But not the same species. You know there are different species of corn? We modify the genes of one species and make a whole new species of corn. That is directed evolution. Like selective breeding on the farm.
When a gene change happens whether natural or artificial the allele frequency for the population has been changed to add the new variants. If those variants come over time to appear in larger portions of the population that population has evolved.
Change in allele frequency. Evolution. Lots of different definitions for evolution. All of them correct.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 9:20 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by K.Rose, posted 02-07-2024 6:58 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 35 of 695 (914924)
02-06-2024 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by K.Rose
02-06-2024 9:18 PM


And if there is such a preponderance then there must be at least one clear, demonstrative example that even the most ignorant of laymen can understand.
Why? Do you think you can comprehend the anomalous magnetic moment of the muon by looking at one scatter plot?
It appears you do not comprehend the static single item of the scientific method. How can you hope to comprehend the complex interplay of thousands of different process like evolution by seeing one example? It's a dog. Big deal.
Can you see the frequency charts for the dog population? Can you read the charts of the dog population to determine changes in the allele frequency? Can you see those charts spread over multiple dozens of generations? That is a clear demonstrative example of evolution.
If you're expecting a single proof case easy on the mind without too much thought then you are in the wrong world.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by K.Rose, posted 02-06-2024 9:18 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 112 of 695 (915031)
02-09-2024 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 12:10 PM


The notion of a random, non-directed, continuing common ancestry for all life forms is the most critical of these, critical in that it is the prerequisite for refuting Biblical Creation.
No one is trying to refute biblical creation. It is a religious fantasy that its adherents themselves refuted​ over a century ago. No one is going to expend the bandwidth arguing to defeat a religious absurdity.
How does one life form evolve into another? What is the mechanism? Can or has it been observed? Can it be reproduced in the laboratory?
Lifeforms evolve by a complex process involving genetic modification of the gene pool over many thousands of generations. The mechanism is modification of alleles and their selection/deletion from the gene pool by the environment.
Yes, the mechanism can and has been observed in operation and reproduced in the lab.
Note that Scientific Fact has a pretty high Certainty bar: Zero Error, 100% Probability, 100% Confidence.
BS. You do not understand the conduct of the scientific disciplines in this world. Only the idiocy and stupidity of religion insists on such terms.
These days the Great Deceit of many scientific theories lies in their presentation to the public as implied fact, and in allowing the misconception of factuality to stand.
The deceit is by politically and religiously motivated groups trying to deny what the universe has shown us. It is that deceit to the public that seeks to mar the scientific findings. See the question immediately above.
You lie about impossible restrictions on a discipline you know nothing about and then complain when they can't be met. Typical errant religious thinking.
Your understandings of evolution and of science are woefully deficient. You need to go back to school (yes, a school where they can give you the semesters of information you cannot get in an internet forum) and pay attention this time.
If Evolutionism can meet the high bar of Scientific Fact, then it should be presented as such. If not, then the Certainty of Evolutionary conclusions must be divulged front and center.
The discipline of Evolution is one of the most well documented well understood mechanisms at work in our universe. Only the desperately religious and the hopelessly ignorant attempt to deny its reality.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:10 PM K.Rose has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 6:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 114 of 695 (915033)
02-09-2024 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 12:25 PM


The defensiveness and reluctance to engage are quite telling.
Because the religious stupidity in the face of overwhelming reality is quite boring. You are recycling old creationist arguments that were destroyed decades ago.
When you're over the target you'll take a lot of flak.
That's not flak. That's laughter.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 12:25 PM K.Rose has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2024 3:20 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 118 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 3:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 128 of 695 (915047)
02-09-2024 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by sensei
02-09-2024 3:46 PM


Overwhelming reality? How is reality overwhelming to you?
Twisty, twisty in the mind. Not overwhelming for me but for you.
The reality of evolution, the evidence in favor, overwhelms your religious fantasies against. Your views on this subject, along with many others, are demonstrably wrong. Yet, you insist your fantasy is right. You live in your own delusional world. Religious = delusional.
Your talking snake doesn't. Delusion (religion) always fails in the face of universal reality.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 3:46 PM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 129 of 695 (915048)
02-09-2024 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by sensei
02-09-2024 5:05 PM


You don't have a single fact to prove your theory.
Wishful thinking on your part. Tons of evidence that you refuse to see. As usual, your religious fantasy cannot stand before the reality.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:05 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 135 of 695 (915054)
02-09-2024 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by sensei
02-09-2024 5:42 PM


You already lose credibility the moment you bring up religion on a scientific topic.
You are a religious nutjob trying to dabble in a science thread. Religion is your motivation for being here. As Granny Magda noted in Message 115 your projection problem is showing again.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 5:42 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 140 of 695 (915059)
02-09-2024 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by sensei
02-09-2024 6:33 PM


All you prove is that you are low IQ.
Yeah, my IQ is so low ...
How low is it?
My IQ is so low I don't believe in talking snakes.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:33 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 156 of 695 (915075)
02-09-2024 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by K.Rose
02-09-2024 6:40 PM


If the random, non-directed evolution of one life form to another has been observed in operation and reproduced in the lab then please share the details.
You can't handle details yet. You still need basic understanding.
Evidence for evolution (article) | Khan Academy
Fact is absolute certainty - 100%!
In your fantasy world of snakes and ribs and super-intelligent apples this may be so. But in this universe, as she has shown us many many times, facts are tentative.
I'll accept that Evolution is well-documented and well-studied, but how accurate is it, what is its certainty? For example, if we take one of the evolution diagrams showing the myriad life forms emanating from a common ancestor, how certain are we of its accuracy?
The available evidence shows quite starkly that the ToE is considerably more accurate than your bible. The other great benefit of ToE over your fantasy tome is that as research grows we can correct the diagrams to reflect the new data. You can't do that with ANY religion without starting a bloody war.
Those diagrams are as accurate as the whole discipline of hundreds of smart guys can make them. It is the best the intellect of mankind has to offer and YOU have NO standing, intellect, education to challenge any of them.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by K.Rose, posted 02-09-2024 6:40 PM K.Rose has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 182 of 695 (915103)
02-09-2024 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by sensei
02-09-2024 6:46 PM


Go somewhere else if you want to debate or talk religion, you dumb fool!
You being here trying to defeat evolution is motivated by your religion. You are a religious actor. I'm in the right spot.
Wow! That projection problem of yours really is severe.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by sensei, posted 02-09-2024 6:46 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
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