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Author | Topic: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7
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quote: I didn’t ask for where the NT says it was fulfilled, since we’re talking about the historical Jesus you need to use the methods and standards of history. Good luck with that. Besides, I’d the NT is all you have you don’t have anything impressive at all. Perhaps your time would be better spent showing where archaeology deals with the creation of the universe?
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candle2 Member (Idle past 134 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Paulk, OT prophecies and NT fulfillment.
*Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem. OT, Micah 5:2--NT,Matthew 2:4-6. *Jesus would begin His ministry in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2,Matthew 4:12-17. *The Scepter shall not depart from Judah. Genesis 49:10,Luke 3:33. *They would cast lots for the clothes of Jesus. Psalms 22:18,John 19:23-24. *Jesus would teach in parables. Psalms 78:1-2, Mark 4:2;Luke 8:10 and Matthew 13:34-35. *the parables of Jesus were used to hide the their truemeaning from all except His elect. Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew 13:13-15 and Mark 4:11,13. *Jesus betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:13-13,Matthew 27:6-10. *Jesus would remain quiet before His accusers. Psalms38:12-13. Matthew 27:12-14. I will post more a little later. *
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4069 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Shall we list the prophesies of the Karaethon Cycle, and how they were fulfilled by Rand Al'Thor in later books of the Wheel of Time?
"Fulfilled prophecy" isn't very impressive, especially when later authors are aware of the earlier prophesies and can write stories about how they were "fulfilled." Predict something extremely narrow and well-defined and *incredibly unlikely to happen*, ensure that those involved in fulfillment are unaware of the prophecy, and then do that 10 or 100 times and it might become impressive. "There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predicting that tomorrow is Tuesday.“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers “A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Nihil supernum
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
I didn’t ask for NT “fulfilment”. I asked for historical confirmation.
quote: The two stories have significant disagreements and implausible elements with no confirmation in any other source - not even each other. Likely they were invented based on this prophecy, and Jesus was born in Nazareth. (One example problem - Matthew has Jesus born prior to the reign of Herod Archelaus - 2:22 makes this plain. Luke has Jesus born during the census of Quirinius, after Archelaus was deposed 2:1-2).So, nothing incredible here. quote: Nothing about starting a ministry there. Indeed it seems to be predicting that Galilee will be incorporated into the Kingdom of Judah - and it seems to be very much rooted in the situation of the time of Isaiah as the preceding and following verses make clear. So, no, not impressive at all.
quote: It is completely unclear what you mean here. However, give that the Davidic line is lost, and there have been no kings of Judah at all for nearly 2000 years it’s really hard to call this one fulfilled (or specifically about Jesus who very likely was NOT of the line of David - the disagreements between Matthew and Luke give good reason to doubt both genealogies).
quote: There isn’t even a good reason to think that this is a prophecy.
quote: There is no reason to think that this is a prophecy at all.
quote: Definitely not a prophecy those are instructions given to Isaiah.
quote: That requires an interesting interpretation of Zechariah. Is Zechariah a betrayer ? He is the one paid 30 pieces of silver. And where is Jesus in it?
quote: Again, not a prophecy. So really this isn’t at all impressive. Even in the one case where you have an actual prophecy and an apparent fulfilment the fulfilment looks to be a fiction. Most aren’t even prophecies. The only impressive thing is that people somehow fall for this obvious nonsense.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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Percy writes:
Here's my take on it for what it is worth. The topic of the thread is that the historical Jesus created the universe. John chap 1 says that "the Word became flesh" obviously referring to Jesus. All through the creation stories we read of God speaking the world and creatures into existence. So when, John and others talk about the "Word" of God they are referring back to the Genesis accounts. So when Jesus the man embodied God's nature of Agapeic love it was then said that He embodied God's Word, and thus some have wrongly extended that to mean that Jesus was there from the beginning of time. It does not mean that Jesus would have had any memory of what happened at any time prior to His birth. It was God's created intelligence and agapeic love, or His "Word" that brought the universe as we perceive it into existence. I contend that we can learn a lot from the Biblical mythologies, if we don't try to understand them literally.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Taq Member Posts: 10304 Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
candle2 writes: Paulk, OT prophecies and NT fulfillment. What I find informative is all of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy could easily be faked without anyone knowing. Is there something about 30 pieces of silver? Well, just write it into the story. The Messiah was actually supposed to conquer the enemies of the Jews. That didn't happen. People would have noticed that one. Instead, the enemy of the Jews killed the alleged Messiah, and then destroyed the Temple not long after that. That's enough to show that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, at least in my eyes.
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candle2 Member (Idle past 134 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Paulk, here are a few more:
*Passover Lamb was to be w/o blemish. Exodus 12:5.Hebrews 9:14. *Jesus was our Passover Lamb. (1Corinthians 5:7).Not aborn of His was to broken. Exodus 12:46. John 19:31-36. *Jesus was to be forsakenby His Father. Psalms 22:1.Matthew 27:46. *Jesus was to be the mediator of a new Covenant.Jeremiah 31:31. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 8:6-13. *God would call His Son out of Egypt. Hosea11:1.Matthew 2:14-15. *Jesus would have a forerunner before Him. Isaiah 40:3-4.John 1:23. *His friends an followers would forsake Him. Psalms 31:11.Mark :24:50. *His body would not see decay. Psalms 16:9-11.Acts 2:31. *His crucifiers would give Him gall and wine to drink.Psalms 69:21. Matthew 27:34. *Jesus would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14. Luke 1:34-35.Matthew 1:23.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: None of these are prophecies.
quote: Which does not appear to have arrived. Jeremiah states that the new covenant will be with the people of Israel:
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more.
Is that actually the case? (And please spare me the ridiculous Anglo-Israelite nonsense). Interestingly it states that Jerusalem would never be demolished - yet the Romans did demolish it after Jesus came. Jesus time on Earth did not see the fulfilment of that part of the prophecy either.
quote:Not a prophecy. quote: No, it doesn’t say that and it appears to be speaking of Isaiah’s time.
quote: Not prophecies.
quote: The actual prophecy is that the Assyrians would conquer Aram and Israel the birth of the child (not to a virgin) is a sign that that event would occur sometime in the next couple of years. Jesus was born centuries too late for that. So again not at all impressive. When do we get to see the good stuff?
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Percy Member Posts: 22954 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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I thought the suggestion to follow the traditional standards of history when discussing what the historical Jesus actually did was a good one. I don't see how candle2's review of Biblical prophecy ties into that.
--Percy
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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As ICANT abandoned this almost a month ago, should it not be closed?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?
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Admin Director Posts: 13108 From: EvC Forum Joined: |
Theodoric in Message 475 writes: As ICANT abandoned this almost a month ago, should it not be closed? Yes, but though I had stopped participating for a while, I picked up again when candle2 joined, so I'm disqualified from taking any action for now. Maybe the PaulK/candle2 dialog will drift more toward the topic. Adminnemooseus and AdminNosy might step in. I think Mod is only here to say hi, but he still has his admin privileges.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
candle2 alleges otherwise - making the same error ICANT did, of failing to understand the concept of the Historical Jesus.
And he has the same inability to make a rational case. Still, I think exposing this stuff as the nonsense it is has some value.
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candle2 Member (Idle past 134 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Paulk, don't play dumb. The men who wrote the NT were
not idiots. There is no way that they would give live to follow a made up God. These same Apostles and Disciples of Jesus ran when hewas arrested. They denied that they even knew Him. These were Jews, and the majority of them do not acceptJesus as the Messiah today. It was the same back then. These same men, the one who ran, were hiding in a room when Jesus appeared to them after His crucifixion andresurrection. Why were they hiding? They were hiding for fear of theJews. John 20:19. Joseph of Arimathea took the body of Jesus secretly forfear of the Jews. John 19:38. Something miraculous happened that caused these menwho feared for their lives to become emboldened, and face the wrath of the Sanhedrin. Nobody is going to risk their life for a made-up scheme,which they know is nor true. There were many Jews still alive when the Disciples ofChrist were making their claims. If it were not true, they would have said so. No one who is making up a god to follow is going to havetheir god beaten, spat on, ridiculed, and nailed to a stake. And, no follower of this made-up god is going to record,for all to see, that he ran and hid like a frightened child. Paul was a hostile witness to Jesus. Paul was responsiblefor tracking down Christians and having the beaten or killed. Something happened to this man that changed his entirelife and outlook. He voluntarily became a follower of Christ. And as such, he suffered numerous beatings, as well asspending a good amount of time in cold, dark dungeons. The authors of the Bible have as much authority, even moreso, than any authors who have ever lived. Jesus was born in a tiny, out of the way, town that most ofthe world didn't even know existed. And, believe it or not Paulk, there were no cell phones, newspapers, or internet. To all but His followers it was not an issue. God is not trying to save the world during this present age. He is only calling His elect, those who will be part of Hisgovernment, and who will rule with Him, when He returns to set up His Kingdom. I want to be in His Kingdom. You want only to believe that you leached from a rock.And, that you have ancestors who were chimp like creatures. You know deep down that Jesus is the Creator. The HolyBible serves ad a witness to this. Without the Creator there would be nothing. Nothing iswhat rocks dream about.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: You want me to be genuinely stupid, then? Because that’s what it would take to actually believe this nonsense you’ve put out. I note that you can’t even answer even one of the points I made. You can’t even show that half of your ”fulfilled prophecies” even are prophecies! So despite all your arrogant bluster, you’ve got nothing.
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candle2 Member (Idle past 134 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Rahvin, you wrote:
"There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predictingthat tomorrow is Tuesday." *I never said anything about wars and rumors of wars. Tomorrow will be Wednesday. The God of the Bible will give everyone who has ever livedthe opportunity to receive eternal life. However, it will be at His appointed time. He will offer the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, theiropportunity to receive eternal life. Anyone who finds faults with God, and His generosity,needs to seek some psychological help. The God of the Bible will offer everyone who has ever livedthe opportunity to become members of the God family. As the sons of God, therefore God Beings ourself, wewill have powers and intellect much greater than what Satan now has. Anyone who finds fault with God's plans for us needs areality check. God does not owe us anything. Everything that we receivefrom Him is due to His great love for us. Evolutionists reject the true God. They much rather believethat they leached from a rock. According to them, everything is due to random chance,even their brains and minds. The problem with this concept is simply how can they possiblytrust their minds? They reduce themselves to mere animals, who sniff eachothers butts and pick lead off of each others.
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