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Author Topic:   The disconnect between the bible, and its horrific actions versus the message
nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 31 of 57 (919438)
07-10-2024 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
07-10-2024 6:23 PM


Re: Similar Yet Different
Phat writes in Message 27:
nwr writes:
Wrong attribution!

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 07-10-2024 6:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2337
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 32 of 57 (919442)
07-10-2024 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-10-2024 1:59 PM


Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us
God said "fuck this, kill 'em all and let me sort it out afterwards" he gave up on everybody but Noah's family.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 1:59 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-11-2024 12:08 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 33 of 57 (919443)
07-11-2024 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by DrJones*
07-10-2024 8:43 PM


No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Dr.Strangelove writes:
God said "fuck this, kill 'em all and let me sort it out afterward" he gave up on everybody but Noah's family.
No. All of the people gave up on themselves and the idea of God and spread nothing but war, greed, and envy. They became the decisions that they freely made. So did Noah's family.
This whole idea of outrage towards a hypothetical "God character is so misguided.
We become the decisions that we make and will reap what we sow. No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by DrJones*, posted 07-10-2024 8:43 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2024 7:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-11-2024 9:12 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 40 by Taq, posted 07-11-2024 12:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 41 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-11-2024 12:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 34 of 57 (919444)
07-11-2024 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-11-2024 12:08 AM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Damn pesky kids. They need to suffer because of what other people did.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-11-2024 12:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 57 (919448)
07-11-2024 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-11-2024 12:08 AM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Stop and actually think.
In the earliest parts of the Old Testament what is actually written just reflects on the unknown authors personal beliefs at the time. It is NOT monotheistic but rather very much polytheistic. It says "I am the Lord THY god. Thou shalt have no other gods Before me"; in other words 'I'm you Daddy and so listen to ME!' All the other gods were very real and there is nothing to suggest they were anything other than as real as Yahweh.
The Gods were tied to one people, one geographic location and had to be worshiped at that location. Look at 2 Kings 5. Naaman get cured by a prophet of the Hebrew God and so wants to worship that god, so he asks for soil from the land and carries it back home like a prayer rug.
The Gods were just like human rulers, tyrants or princes; good at times but capricious and evil at other times. They were often not kind but rather cruel. That definitely included Yahweh. Ask Abraham, Jonah and Job.
The Gods were not all knowing. See Gen 18:15-33.
Again Phat, these are all written and I've pointed them out to you numerous times over the decades but you choose to believe the Carny Barkers called Apologists that tell you that they don't really mean what is actually written
Throw the Christianity and God and Jesus YOU created away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-11-2024 12:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 36 of 57 (919449)
07-11-2024 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-10-2024 1:59 PM


GDR writes in Message 20:
Firstly I would say that the message that we should take from the Noah story that no matter how bad things get, God doesn't give up on us. The flood story IMHO is a legend that grew up within various cultures around some local flood centuries ago.
That's you. Most conservative Christians take the flood story as literal truth and are therefore worshipping a monster. And the flood is just one of many OT examples.
I strongly disagree with your take on the NT. Firstly it isn't about going to heaven at all but about heaven coming to earth, or more pointedly, the renewal of all things in this world. We are only given a very broad image of what would be like, with things like no suffering and not being stuck with one dimension in time doing away with entropy.
Again, that's you, not conservative Christians. I have a couple responses:
  • How is preaching working for ya here so far?
  • And you know this how?
You have your own set of eclectic religious views about which you'll go on endlessly, continually and repeatedly cycling back to earlier issues which you left people feeling were settled, as captured in Choosing a faith.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 07-11-2024 11:56 AM Percy has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 37 of 57 (919452)
07-11-2024 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
07-11-2024 9:39 AM


Percy writes:
That's you. Most conservative Christians take the flood story as literal truth and are therefore worshipping a monster. And the flood is just one of many OT examples.
And you know that how. I've been involved in church life for numerous years and I haven't met all that many Christians who would read that literally. Actually it's more of an American thing.
Percy writes:
Again, that's you, not conservative Christians. I have a couple responses:

How is preaching working for ya here so far?

And you know this how?

You have your own set of eclectic religious views about which you'll go on endlessly, continually and repeatedly cycling back to earlier issues which you left people feeling were settled, as captured in Choosing a faith.
Sure it's easier for the vast majority of posters on this forum so mock the strawman you have set up. I don't think I've changed any minds but I've tried to a show that to be a conservative Christian, (which is a label that you have attached), you don't have to conform to your strawman.
I suppose I have repeated things that I've posted several times previously but just maybe I repeat them because posters here keep pounding away with the same attacks they have made all along.
So as I'm sorry if I'm boring you and you can carry on carrying on.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-11-2024 9:39 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2024 12:22 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 42 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2024 1:02 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 07-11-2024 2:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


(2)
Message 38 of 57 (919453)
07-11-2024 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by GDR
07-11-2024 11:56 AM


And you know that how. I've been involved in church life for numerous years and I haven't met all that many Christians who would read that literally. Actually it's more of an American thing.
Do if you look at the subset if people you knowand exclude everyone from the US you would be correct? Do you actually think what you write?
What strawman? Point it out.
Maybe not be so boring and pitiful if you attempted to make amd support an actual argument.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 07-11-2024 11:56 AM GDR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10295
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(2)
Message 39 of 57 (919455)
07-11-2024 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by GDR
07-10-2024 6:35 PM


GDR writes:
The point is even if there is only one righteous person left God isn't giving up on us.
That's not the point I get from the story. God gave up on a lot of people, those who weren't the one righteous person. God is telling us that if you aren't righteous then he will give up on you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 07-10-2024 6:35 PM GDR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10295
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(2)
Message 40 of 57 (919456)
07-11-2024 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-11-2024 12:08 AM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Phat writes:
All of the people gave up on themselves and the idea of God and spread nothing but war, greed, and envy. They became the decisions that they freely made. So did Noah's family.
No one freely chose to drown. That was forced onto them.
This whole idea of outrage towards a hypothetical "God character is so misguided.
It's normal human behavior. We do it all of the time. Haven't you ever watched a movie?
We become the decisions that we make and will reap what we sow. No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.
We are talking about a Creator who went out of his way to kill people. No one chose to die. The Creator chose to kill them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-11-2024 12:08 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-11-2024 2:13 PM Taq has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 41 of 57 (919457)
07-11-2024 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-11-2024 12:08 AM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
33 writes:
No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.
That's true. It's funny though, that particular god of yours, the one in the bible, gives the impression of wanting to teach humanity it's brand of morality. One of the most effective methods of teaching is by example and the god of the bible is a bloody monstrous tyrant who claims to love us. That's the morality that christian and jewish religions have drummed into their believers for thousands of years, violence and greed and oppressions.
Sorry, but you can never convince anyone that drowning every living thing is a rational solution for misbehavior by some members of one species! This story is just plain stupid! A being powerful enough to create a planet and then creating life, would fix it rather than destroy it all.
If the god you believe in was real, I would try to get as far away as possible. The god character in your story is playing the role of evil villain, not benevolent parent in my opinion. And benevolent parent is exactly the god portrayed in the bible, except when violence is required. The god who created everything can't cure a few people and loses controls and kills everything, but without leaving a single trace of evidence of this global killing event, nothing, none.
No Creator owes you anything. Grow up.
Yep, it's as if no creator exists. None of us can see, hear, touch or in any way detect or interact in any way with your god. We can live our lives as if your god is imaginary and never expect it to contact us and never expect help if we ask for it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-11-2024 12:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-12-2024 7:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 42 of 57 (919459)
07-11-2024 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by GDR
07-11-2024 11:56 AM


Percy writes:
Most conservative Christians take the flood story as literal truth and ...
And you know that how. I've been involved in church life for numerous years and I haven't met all that many Christians who would read that literally.
And I know that there are no such things as blizzards or tornados or hurricanes because in my 66 years of living in Southern California I have never experienced either of those things. Therefore from my personal experience, there's no such thing.
In both your and my case, our sampling is highly biased by not being where such things happen. You just happened to have been in non-YEC churches, but there are many fundie churches which are YEC in which they require that you believe that Noah's Flood literally happened in order to be a "true Christian" (therefore, those "Christians" of whom you speak weren't really Christians). Similarly, Percy's and our perception is also strongly biased by the parade of YECs who insist on the literal truth of Noah's Flood (eg, do you remember Faith and the complete and utter nonsense claims she made?)
Also, I had an email correspondence with a Canadian YEC, so I know from personal experience that they do exist.
BTW, I did serve five winters in the cold part of North Dakota and experienced a couple blizzards there. It was nothing like in the movies where the wind is howling. No howling wind in the real thing -- actually no wind for that matter -- , just silence as tons of snow fell softly from the sky reducing visibility on the ground to maybe 100 feet.
Actually it's more of an American thing.
Yes, for the most part YEC has been exported from the USA, but like any self-respecting invasive species it has taken root and flourishes in foreign lands like Australia and Canada. Even in the formation of YEC Canadians contributed; eg, George McCready Price from whom Dr. Henry Morris ("Father of Flood Geology") stole whole his ideas without attribution. And many YouTube videos addressing creationist claims address videos by Canadian creationists (eg, Viced Rhino's critiques of Calvin Smith of Answers in Genesis Canada). Oh, and Ken Ham of "Ark Experience" infamy is from Australia.
Again, if you haven't traveled in those circles then you wouldn't be aware of them. The reason is not because of them, but rather because of your own inattentiveness.
Sure it's easier for the vast majority of posters on this forum so mock the strawman you have set up.
Not a strawman, since the creationists of whom we speak do actually exist.
Also, I turn a jaundiced eye to such sweeping uninformed denials. For example, when trying to discuss with creationists whenever I would mention the creationist "why are there still monkeys?" "question", the creationist would attack me for strawmanning and would deny that any creationist would actually say something so completely stupid as that. And yet, in my four decades with creationism I have personally witnessed creationists using that exact claim several times in the wild and totally of their own volition (indeed, they were the ones to bring it up). Furthermore, when Dr. Jonathan Sarfati of Answers in Genesis published their to-my-knowledge-first article of "Claims We Wish Creationists Would Not Use" (2002), that list included "Why are there still monkeys?", which indicates that that question was so prevalent that they felt they had to address it -- BTW, Sarfati had to respond to a professional creationist, Kent Hovind, who lambasted their article because he himself used many of those really bad claims (I quote from Sarfati's response here -- Sarfati even issues the same warnings as I have for decades, that false creationist claims kill faith and lead to atheism).
I don't think I've changed any minds but I've tried to a show that to be a conservative Christian, (which is a label that you have attached), you don't have to conform to your strawman.
Again, not a strawman.
But my impression of you has been that you are at least reasonable in sharp contrast to the likes of candle2 (only the latest in a long parade of mindless creationist drones). One at least has a chance to engage you in a discussion, something that YECs et alia work tirelessly to prevent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 07-11-2024 11:56 AM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 43 of 57 (919462)
07-11-2024 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tanypteryx
07-11-2024 12:55 PM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
If I ever found that Phat's god was real, I would tell that god to stuff it. Do it's worst.Spit in it's face. Nothing that demands worship is worthy of worship.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-11-2024 12:55 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 57 (919463)
07-11-2024 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Taq
07-11-2024 12:42 PM


Re: No Creator Owes Anyone Anything
Taq writes:
We are talking about a Creator who went out of his way to kill people. No one chose to die. The Creator chose to kill them.
Particularly all the little children and animals who had done nothing to deserve death.
Perhaps SHE said "Suffer the little children to come unto me" as the waters got really high for a better view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Taq, posted 07-11-2024 12:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 07-11-2024 3:24 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 45 of 57 (919465)
07-11-2024 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by GDR
07-11-2024 11:56 AM


GDR writes in Message 37:
Percy writes:
That's you. Most conservative Christians take the flood story as literal truth and are therefore worshipping a monster. And the flood is just one of many OT examples.
And you know that how?
Seriously? You've been here since 2005 and somehow missed the parade of creationists arguing about the Grand Canyon and geologic layers and Mount St. Helens and radiometric dating and slow light and the impossibility of evolution and the literal truth of the Bible? Did you never go to the religious section of bookstores in the 1990s and early 2000s and see all the books dedicated to creationism? I created this site because of the very active debate between creation and evolution. And you're asking how I know that most conservative Christians take the flood story literally?
Sure it's easier for the vast majority of posters on this forum so mock the strawman you have set up.
Strawman? Again, have you been reading the posts on this site or not? How you could read anything by Faith, ICANT, randman, riVeRraT, Buzsaw, mike the wiz, frako, Dredge and so on and say we're creating a strawman? Then there's organizations like ICR and CRS, all the people cheering on Duane Gish at his "debates", the Answers in Genesis Ark Encounter park that draws nearly a million visitors a year, Kitzmiller v. Dover and all the efforts to get Genesis taught in schools, and on and on. A strawman? That's just delusional. Please don't be this absurd.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 07-11-2024 11:56 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2024 3:58 PM Percy has not replied

  
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