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Author | Topic: The Second Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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The only appropriate response to your nonsense is ridicule. Are you planning a return to the real world anytime soon?
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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K.Rose writes in Message 280: Percy writes in Message 276:
This is a very strange kerfuffle that he's started, but he usually has a point in these instances and he usually comes out on top. Yes, we know, in Trump you trust....I don't know why you think Trump is going to be open and honest about his administration......He's very aware of what not to talk about. You left out everything I listed where Trump was not transparent. I repeat: In Trump you trust. I think you might literally be one of those people who would still support Trump after he shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. "Trump knew what he was doing," you would say. There is nothing that will ever open your eyes to the man's sheer mendacity and menace. If you crave attention-getting entertainment, if you love a good reality show, especially one that actually plays out in the real world, he's your guy. Unfortunately for those of us who also live in the real world, brinksmanship, especially absent statecraft, rarely has a good outcome. Trump is already demonstrating to the world that his presidency will be just as dangerous and disruptive as feared, perhaps ever more so. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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K.Rose writes in Message 282: Percy writes in Message 268:
I assume we're talking about Trump becoming the next Hitler. Hitler never made any secret of his intentions.....For Trump to follow Hitler's roadmap Why would you assume that? It's surprising how consistently you get things wrong.
Maybe the Atlantic missed the memo, but all the Hitler-Stalin-Mussolini-fascist stuff was abandoned after the election, it didn't work. I'm pretty sure that if anyone missed a memo it was you. How did you somehow manage to forget all Trump's rhetoric from both before and after the election. Cruel treatment for illegal immigrants. High tariffs everywhere. Threatening other countries' sovereignty and mocking other nation's leaders. My post was not about Trump becoming Hitler. It was about how Germany lost its democracy in the first half of the 30's and how Trump appears to be following a similar roadmap. You quoted me saying as much. How could you get the topic so wrong?
In any case the Atlantic need not fret. The Weimar Republic was a homogeneous society being economically crushed by its victorious adversaries, existentially desperate. The US is the most non-homogeneous and diverse society in the history of the world. I think what you meant to say is that Germany was going through a chaotic period after their defeat in WWI and was more politically fragile then than the U.S. is now. This is true, but as I already described, Hitler only needed a precipitating event to declare a national emergency that created fertile ground for his plans for total power. Trump is following the same roadmap and has already talked about using tariffs as an excuse for declaring a national emergency. Your mention of degree of racial homogeneity did not make sense to me. I thought Trump supporters believe that we're a Christian nation threatened by pollution from foreign blood, and that we must deport this threat to our purity. Trump supporters believe it is extremely important to protect our racial purity. Sound familiar?
We may be fed-up, but we're not to the point where we'll accept just any response. Who is "we". You just spoke of how diverse a country we are. There's a wide diversity of opinion.
Americans may be distracted, somewhat inattentive, but not stupid. Some are, but do they know that? Do sheep ever know that they're being led to the slaughter?
A Hitler-like thing would never fly. You should read It Can't Happen Here, written in 1935 by Sinclair Lewis. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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K.Rose writes in Message 297: Percy writes in Message 292: My post was not about Trump becoming Hitler. It was about how Germany lost its democracy in the first half of the 30's and how Trump appears to be following a similar roadmap. You quoted me saying as much. How could you get the topic so wrong? I see. So, in an entry titled "How Hitler Trashed the German Constitution in Less Than Two Months" that sees equivalence between the incoming Trump administration and the collapse of the Weimar Republic due to Hitler and the rise of the Nazi party, that references an Atlantic article titled "How Hitler Dismantled a Democracy in 53 Days", you are saying that there is no implication that Trump is the next Hitler, you are only saying that Trump is intending to dismantle democracy using Hitler's methods, but the inclusion of "Hitler" is not meant in any way to suggest Trump is like or will be like [the next] Hitler. Do I have this straight? Remove the sarcasm and that's pretty much it. The article described how Hitler destroyed German democracy within the bounds of its own constitution and how Trump seems to be following a similar roadmap. But Hitler did far more and far, far worse than just destroying German democracy. Death camps, genocide, and beginning a war that caused the deaths of at least 35 million people come to mind, and the article did not say or imply that Trump is the next Hitler.
quote:Forgive me, but this is just slander. Trump increased his percentages among Black, Latino, Muslim, and other minority voters; there's no way anyone could miss this fact. This is true and to me inexplicable, because it is also true that about a year ago Trump said:
Trump: Hitler used the term "blood poisoning" in Mein Kampf while criticizing immigration and the intermingling of races. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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K.Rose writes in Message 298: Percy writes in Message 291: Unfortunately for those of us who also live in the real world, brinksmanship, especially absent statecraft, rarely has a good outcome. Trump is already demonstrating to the world that his presidency will be just as dangerous and disruptive as feared, perhaps ever more so. In the 'real world' Western Civilization is on the decline;... If you truly believe Western civilization no longer possesses the qualities necessary to maintain its elite status in the world, then have you considered increasing immigration?
...China is ascendant;... Yes. So is India. Their huge populations kind of guarantee that. Indonesia's and Turkey's economies are also growing rapidly.
...the West has provoked Russia,... How so?
...and is now signaling to an aggravated, aggressive Russia that they (the West) are not up to an assertive response. Trump is often ambiguous, but he seems to lean toward solutions that favor Russia. How is that an assertive response?
In the real world there will always be a clear leader, and if there isn't a clear one, one will emerge, power abhors a vacuum. Trump is a true leader, and part of his style is to needle his opponents and his potential partners to see how they respond, see how they measure up. It's old-school stuff, probably considered toxic masculinity these days, but it works. It sounds like you want a dictator.
China and Russia have strong, determined leaders. Dictators, you mean.
Most of our western guys seem to be partially or thoroughly neutered. But they may soon be unelected in the wake of our election. Hopefully not our last real election. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
The degree to which you're uninformed, misinformed and bigoted is truly startling.
K.Rose writes in Message 306: Percy writes in Message 303: If you truly believe Western civilization no longer possesses the qualities necessary to maintain its elite status in the world, then have you considered increasing immigration? Much of the illegal immigration originates in 3rd-world kleptocratic dictatorships, and the unfortunate oppressed in those places look at a US welfare existence as being a step or two up the standard-of-living ladder. So why not sneak into the US; you don't need any skills, you don't even need a clean criminal record. So no, this type of immigration will not help us with our problems. What made you assume I meant that we should increase illegal immigration? Did you somehow conclude that putting an emphasis on the humane treatment of illegal immigrants means favoring illegal immigration? Obviously one does not imply the other, just as emphasizing the humane treatment of criminals does not imply favoring crime. More generally, most of us here, possibly minus the Christians and Trump supporters, believe it important to treat all people everywhere humanely always, and to have respect for all peoples. Speaking of which, you have a strongly and shamefully bigoted view of the people who have the misfortune of living in countries that are deprived economically, politically or both. When the ancestors of our asian citizens first came to this country they were thought an inferior race, but today they are one of the highest performing academic groups. We know now that biologically there is no such thing as race, inferior or otherwise, and that racial differences are superficial. Take into account that living under unfortunate economic and political conditions is an even less meaningful factor than race and your bigoted attitude is even less justifiable.
I am all for legal, regulated immigration, this is what has brought our country so far so fast. As long as the legal immigrants are net contributors, they assimilate and call US their home, and they aren't displacing US workers (this is a more complex topic). This is not a complex topic. The U.S. birth rate is 1.66 births per woman per lifetime, which is less than the replacement rate of 2.1. Without immigration the U.S. population would be in decline and would be facing the same problem Japan is now, a shrinking workforce that causes labor shortages, hinders economic growth, reduces consumer demand, and causes a lessened ability to provide for an aging population. The current average annual population growth rate for the U.S. is approximately .6%. GDP growth over time has averaged around 3% annually, and we can only maintain that by maintaining strong productivity growth since our population is only growing at .6%. Average productivity growth since 1900 has averaged around 2.5%. Add that to our growing population and you get the average GDP growth of around 3%. So if you limit immigration then you limit GDP growth. So if you want an economy strong enough to compete with the Chinas and Indias of the world then you need increased immigration. And you definitely don't want to deport millions of illegals because they are among the most productive people we have because they tend to work hard for low wages.
The Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, hard work, rugged individualism, and the negative rights enumerated in the Constitution, along with strict adherence Judeo-Christian values (per the Founding Fathers, and you don't have to be of Faith to adhere to these values) have made the US what it is today. I don't know about the "rugged individualism" part. That's just one quality out of the general mix of qualities in any population. But certainly cooperation and working toward shared goals is very important. And about Judeo-Christian values, most Christians are like you, Christians in name only. The founding fathers held diverse opinions about the role of religion, and many thought Christianity endorsed slavery, as immoral an institution as there ever was. So much for your Christian morality. Most importantly you're forgetting our enormous natural resources, cheap labor from first generation immigrants and slaves, and a rapidly growing population. Those were the biggest contributors to American exceptionalism, and some of them are nothing to be proud of.
If legal immigrants can leave their big-government socialist tendencies behind them and adhere to these Anerican principles then, yes, I would expect our status to improve. Your bigotry is showing again. Any large group of people will display the same characteristics in roughly the same proportions. Whatever characteristic you name, whether it's morality or motivation or willingness to work hard or whatever you name, Americans do not possess those qualities in any greater or lesser proportions than any other people. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Punctuation. Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 307: And Biden, on his way out the door, seemingly in effort to hobble Trump (but in fact hurting the entire country), tells Ukraine to fire missiles into Russia, and start laying land mines - land mines! Madness. Disgraceful. For once we agree about something. Not only did Biden approve land mines for Ukraine, the U.S isn't even a signatory to the international treaty banning land mines. Russia is also not a signatory, and they are also using landmines in Ukraine. I couldn't support a Ukraine tit for tat, responding to Russia's use of land mines in Ukraine with the placement of land mines in the Kursk region of Russia that Ukraine currently controls. While it feels like something needs to bring the war home to the Russian people, it *is* a dictatorship that doesn't tolerate dissent (though their dictator is a strong leader and obviously admirable, at least to some ![]() Land mines should have been as much a hard no for Ukraine as continuing to supply arms to Israel while they were murdering civilians in Gaza. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 306: Much of the illegal immigration originates in 3rd-world kleptocratic dictatorships, and the unfortunate oppressed in those places look at a US welfare existence as being a step or two up the standard-of-living ladder. So why not sneak into the US; you don't need any skills, you don't even need a clean criminal record. So no, this type of immigration will not help us with our problems. Sorry to reply twice to the same message, but I intended to mention this as one of the things you're uninformed/misinformed about in my first response and somehow got distracted. Illegal immigrants cannot collect welfare, so to the extent your negative attitudes about illegals are based on a fear that they will suck us dry collecting welfare, you can relax. I am curious why you thought this, though. Illegals have to fly under the radar to avoid being caught, so applying for welfare would be an extremely unlikely thing for them to do. In addition, welfare forms require a great deal of documentation that an illegal immigrant is extremely unlikely to have, and lying on welfare forms is a crime - it's considered welfare fraud. I looked up about legal immigrants collecting welfare, and it seems they collect welfare at a far lower rate than native Americans, plus a 1996 law prohibits legal immigrants from receiving welfare until they've been in the country at least five years. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Phat writes in Message 314: I wonder why we would see a middle class increase if we did not extend the cuts? The reason you're wondering is because you've forgotten that while the 2017 Trump tax cuts for the rich had no time limit, those for everyone else were set to expire at the end of 2025. Of course, a simple Google search would have reminded you of that. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 317: Percy writes in Message 309: K.Rose writes in Message 306: What made you assume I meant that we should increase illegal immigration? Percy writes in Message 303: Much of the illegal immigration originates in 3rd-world kleptocratic dictatorships, and the unfortunate oppressed in those places look at a US welfare existence as being a step or two up the standard-of-living ladder. So why not sneak into the US; you don't need any skills, you don't even need a clean criminal record. So no, this type of immigration will not help us with our problems. If you truly believe Western civilization no longer possesses the qualities necessary to maintain its elite status in the world, then have you considered increasing immigration? What made you assume that I assumed that you meant we should increase illegal immigration? It's like you don't understand the English you yourself wrote. Read your response again. It doesn't say what you apparently think it does. All of it is about illegal immigration.
What made you think that I was arguing/agreeing with your position on illegal immigration? Indeed, what made you think that I even thought you had a position on the matter? Apparently you didn't understand the English I wrote, either.
As a matter-of-fact, in all these discussions I am still not clear on your position regarding illegal immigration. You have to ask? How many people are actually in favor of illegal immigration? I expect that most people, myself certainly included, are against illegal immigration. What I am for is treating all people humanely, and I have said that repeatedly. It does seem unfair that some people are able to enter the country illegally and live here for years, becoming part of our communities by working and raising families, while others follow the rules and go through normal channels. It also seems unfair that some people are born in politically and economically stable countries while others have the misfortune to be born in countries full of crime, unrest and economic instability. Simple Christian values would seem to demand compassion for those having the misfortune to have been born in those parts of the world.
You point out that Trump is evil, heartless, bigoted, and racist no matter how he handles it. Maybe I'm wrong. Describe the compassion and humanity that Trump brings to the immigration issue.
You point out that these people deserve empathy and assistance - for most of them this is true. You point out that most of them are law-abiding (if we disregard the illegal entry thing) which is also true. It's great to find another point of agreement.
But you don't offer a clear assertion of what you would have us do about the millions of people who are here,... I'm not sufficiently informed to offer specific solutions, but as policy makers discuss solutions I will make clear through my vote that I am for compassion and against cruelty.
...intentionally illegally,... Because they're criminals or because they're desperate?
...many of them criminals when they entered, and continuing with their criminal activities in this country. As I keep telling you, when it comes to broad characteristics, all large groups are pretty much the same. Criminality is no more significant among illegal immigrants than among native born Americans. The crime rate among Americans is higher than illegal immigrants and legal immigrants. I presented a bar chart for you once, but since you've forgotten it here it is again:
Easy enough to sit on the sidelines and point out imperfections, and argue for the ideal, if unattainable, solution. Talk talk talk. It takes a great mind, great courage, and a great man to endeavor to do the right thing at risk of excoriation, risk to actual life and limb, and risk to reputation. In other words his Life, his Fortune, and his Sacred Honor. Oh good grief. Go ahead, continue your Trump worship. I'll continue pushing for humane solutions. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 319: Percy writes in Message 309: The degree to which you're...bigoted is truly startling....you have a strongly and shamefully bigoted view... Your bigotry is showing again Generalization, certainly, in the interest of staying on point. But if these entries are bigotry then half of the entries in this forum are bigotry, including many of yours. If the topic is still illegal immigration, then all the bigotry is coming from you. If you think there's any bigotry coming from me then feel free to point it out. Calling attention to bigotry is not itself bigotry, but I'm reminded of a friend from college who was endlessly amused by the statement, "I hate bigots." ![]() --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 320: Percy writes in Message 309:
Agree with you wholeheartedly here, and the Bible has known this always. We know now that biologically there is no such thing as race... That's nice. Perhaps you could follow this Biblical passage:
Leviticus 19:34: But if you know this to be true, then what's with all the RACIST! RACIST! RACIST! stuff? Biologically there's no such thing as race, but obviously race exists as a social construct, and it is very, very real for many people. We're all aware of Republican attempts to condemn as racism those calling attention to racism. We saw this in the recent debate over affirmative action.
How do you define racism? Basing one's treatment of people upon race is racism. For an obvious example, "separate but equal" was racism pure and simple, not to mention that there was nothing equal about it. By this definition affirmative action is racism, but any overt effort to overcome covert racism is not actually racism. Just because racist laws are no longer on the books doesn't mean there's no racism. Statistics reveal that racism remains rampant, such as recent studies of identical people but for race applying for jobs or housing.
More to the point, how do you define race? I guess I'd say that race as a social construct is categorizing people according to superficial physical characteristics such as skin color, facial characteristics and hair texture. And racism is the belief that categories of people different from ourselves are in some way inferior or deserving of prejudicial treatment. While the peoples of the nations you've been denigrating are mostly of different races, I've been labeling your language bigoted because it seems directed at nationalities rather than race, but singling people out for ill treatment based on country of origin is just as bad as racism. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Well, someone certainly doesn't like to be held accountable. Don't blame the messenger. No one's forcing Christians (in name only) to come here and behave badly. The important issue isn't whether I said things about you and Christians that were unflattering but whether they are true.
You seem to have abandoned your God for the false idol of Trump. Some of the elements of his sociopathy are clearly present in you, such as lack of empathy and remorse. Your own needs are paramount, and manipulation, gaslighting and lying will be employed to meet them. You also don't seem to know what bigotry means. Your condemnation of those from what Trump would call "shithole countries" hits bigotry right in the bullseye. What you quoted me saying isn't bigotry (you could look it up, you know), but if you'd like to rationalize the crimes of Christianity through the centuries (and we could widen the scope to religion in general) then start a thread over at Faith and Belief. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
K.Rose writes in Message 329: Percy writes in Message 324: I guess I'd say that race as a social construct is categorizing people according to superficial physical characteristics such as skin color, facial characteristics and hair texture. So then, race is an abstraction, fluid and subjective as defined by the beholder? Yes, race is a social abstraction because it has no basis in biological reality, but it has little fluidity or subjectivity. Who people identify as black or Chinese or Indian (the subcontinent) doesn't change. For example, my friend Ted Eng remained Chinese to everyone he met everyday of his life. I remain white Caucasian to everyone I meet everyday of my life. Of course there can be ambiguity around the margins, such as blacks who are light-colored enough to pass for white. If you've heard of the professional tennis player Madison Keys, did you know she's black? On the other hand, everyone everywhere would identify Serena Williams as black.
By this standard just about any criticism can be labelled "racism". You can't define racism away.
If you can't clearly define race,... Clearly *you* can't and don't want to.
...then racism is undefinable,... Pretending racism no longer exists is straight-on Republican propaganda. Racism is clearly definable, I just defined it, it clearly exists. Run a simple experiment yourself. Fill out two job applications identically except for the name where one is "Robert Miller" and the other is "Tyrone Washington." Guess which one is most likely to get a callback for an interview.
...and statements like this are simply stupefying:
quote: Let's put it in a context that will make the point clear to you. You're in the south in the 1950's. A little black boy is thirsty but can only drink from the bubbler for blacks, whose water is brown. That's racism. You provide a remedy for racism by leading him over to the bubbler for whites that has pure, clear water while you stand watch. That's not racism. Now let's describe affirmative action. Blacks are educated in substandard schools that leave them unqualified for the premiere schools. That's racism. Affirmative action provides a remedy by making possible entrance to the premiere schools. That's not racism. In case it isn't clear, what makes one racism and the other not is the prejudicial behavior. Denying blacks clean water is prejudice, while making clean water available is not. Denying blacks access to the premiere schools is prejudice, while making them available is not. Of course it gets more complicated than that. Spots that blacks gain at premiere schools are spots that whites lose, often called reverse discrimination. But if blacks weren't relegated through racsim to substandard K-12 schools then there would have been a fair playing field for them to compete for those spots, but racism removed that possibility. Affirmative action restores it. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23170 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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This is taken from https://www.cnn.com/...ction-immigration-dc-rally/index.html:
Of course, all this lying is understandable. After all, how are you going to fire up a rally if you stick to the truth. --Percy
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