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Author Topic:   Forever Faithful: A Question for Creationists
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 16 of 95 (99939)
04-14-2004 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkman
04-12-2004 9:09 AM


funkman writes:
I have never made the contention that evidence is what causes me to believe the Bible.
I don't have a list of your contentions before me, but your actions are one of using your faith in the inerrancy of your interpretation of the Bible to deny the evidence of the natural world, which is also an expression of God's word, by the way, and even more literally inerrant.
To your question of the Bible being fallible because it was written by fallible men, again I take a stance of faith in the Bible when it says "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." (II Timothy 3:16) This verse means that when the fallible men were writing, they were writing only what infallible God wanted them to write.
How is this any different than someone saying to you, "I'm inspired by God, what I say is inerrant."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkman, posted 04-12-2004 9:09 AM funkman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by funkman, posted 04-14-2004 12:31 PM Percy has replied

  
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 95 (99942)
04-14-2004 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
04-14-2004 12:06 PM


your faith in the inerrancy of your interpretation of the Bible
No, not the inerrancy of my interpretation. The inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible is the authority, not me. If my interpretation of it is shown to be wrong by it, then I must change my interpretation.
evidence of the natural world, which is also an expression of God's word, by the way, and even more literally inerrant.
I think I would disagree with you on this point. The universe is affected by the curse of sin. God's Word is not. God has not allowed sin and error into his Word, but He has allowed sin and error into the world.
How is this any different than someone saying to you, "I'm inspired by God, what I say is inerrant."
It's not. However, if that person was put to the test, I'm sure you would find sin and contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies in what that person had said. Not so with the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 04-14-2004 12:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2004 12:45 PM funkman has not replied
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 04-15-2004 11:15 AM funkman has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 18 of 95 (99946)
04-14-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by funkman
04-14-2004 12:31 PM


But the problem is that it's your interpretation of the Bible that says that the Bible claims to be infallible.
2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't say that it is referring to the Bible. It doesn't even say that it refers to itself !
It doesn't say that God controlled every word or prevented the human authors from making mistakes (and what would be the point ? - we don't have the originals and even most inerrantists admit that there are some mistakes in the texts we have now).
And it certainly doesn't say that any of it is literally true.
All that is your interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by funkman, posted 04-14-2004 12:31 PM funkman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 19 of 95 (100209)
04-15-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by funkman
04-14-2004 12:31 PM


funkman writes:
No, not the inerrancy of my interpretation. The inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible is the authority, not me. If my interpretation of it is shown to be wrong by it, then I must change my interpretation.
Science long ago demonstrated your interpretation wrong, but you didn't change it. Your interpretation of Genesis is that it is a literally true account, and you will not change your interpretation even though there is no supporting evidence and much contrary evidence. While I understand you don't really believe your interpretation is inerrant, your position really boils down to, "I may be wrong, but I'm not," even though all the evidence points to Genesis being an allegorical myth.
All I was saying was that when it comes to making a choice, you choose your interpretation of the Bible over the evidence from the natural world.
The universe is affected by the curse of sin. God's Word is not. God has not allowed sin and error into his Word, but He has allowed sin and error into the world.
Again, this is your interpretation and something you believe on faith, but you have no supporting evidence. The facts say Genesis is allegory and the universe is ancient. And anyway, Genesis says God created the universe before sin existed. But I grant you've introduced a new twist. Perhaps your believe that sin or the devil or something similar caused Noah's flood to leave behind the appearance of an ancient earth.
It's not. However, if that person was put to the test, I'm sure you would find sin and contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies in what that person had said. Not so with the Bible.
No sins or contradictions in the Bible? I don't think so. It contains many internal and external contradictions, and it describes all manner of sins. You simply deny they exist. And you have no evidenc, only your faith, for believing sin can affect everything in the universe except the Bible.
Even further, if you put the person to the test and found him lacking he would simply take the same approach you do with the Bible by inventing all manner of apologetics to explain the errors and contradictions.
The Bible was written by men, not commonly believed to be inerrant. That they were inspired at the time they wrote is based upon the testimony of men. That men inspired by God produce inerrant text is not supported by any evidence. These are all things you accept on faith. My original point remains: your rejection of objective evidence is based upon faith, not evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by funkman, posted 04-14-2004 12:31 PM funkman has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 95 (100300)
04-15-2004 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:01 PM


Provide evidence that God exists.
Provide evidence that the Biblical authors were inspired by God at the time they wrote
Ever since I began posting on this forum I've been providing this evidence, but you and your ideological colleagues don't seem to have an ear to hear. I believe my evidence is more imperical than yours to the contrary.
1. I've cited the specific fulfilled prophecies.
2. I've cited the secularist scientific documentation for the chariot "junk yard" in the Gulf of Aqaba and other evidence for verification of the Exodus.
3. I've cited the creationist's archeological evidence of human artifacts embeded in coal and other like stuff.
4. I've cited the significance with the re-emergence of the nation of Israel according to numerous Biblical prophecies.
5. I've shown evidence for the supernatural dimension in the universe, both the good and the evil.
If the above are shown to be valid, the evidence is there for credibility of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 04-09-2004 7:01 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 04-15-2004 11:40 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2004 3:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 21 of 95 (100301)
04-15-2004 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
04-15-2004 11:26 PM


In regards to point 1. Nostradamus has made prophesys as well that appear to be fulfilled. Prophesy fulfillment is not evidence of nothing but coincidence.
In regards to point 2. No one is saying that the Bible does not contain some historical documentation, This however is not evidence of the bible being any different than any other secular ancient documents such as Roman historical writings.
In regards to point 3. What significance does human artifacts have being found in coal? Are you suggesting Coal is not what it is?
In regards to point 4. Redundant see point 1.
In regards to point 5. I started a thread about the supernatural and had but 3 or 4 hits of "claims" of the supernatural. Nothing but heresay was offered. No verifiable evidence was given. If you have evidence in regards to the supernatural other than: "Just take my word for it" Please show it. Buzz I am interested in any evidence you may have to show.[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-15-2004]

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:53 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 95 (100305)
04-15-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by 1.61803
04-15-2004 11:40 PM


In regards to point 1. Nostradamus has made prophesys as well that appear to be fulfilled. Prophesy fulfillment is not evidence of nothing but coincidence.
In regards to point 2. No one is denying that the Bible does not contain some historical documentation, This however is not evidence of the bible being any different than any other secular ancient documents such as Roman historical writings.
In regards to point 3. What significance does human artifacts have being found in coal? Are you suggesting Coal is not what it is?
In regards to point 4. Redundant see point 1.
In regards to point 5. I started a thread about the supernatural and had but 3 or 4 hits of "claims" of the supernatural. Nothing but heresay was offered. No verifiable evidence was given. If you have evidence in regards to the supernatural other than: "Just take my word for it" Please show it. Buzz I am interested in any evidence you may have to show.
1. Nostradamus was Johnny come lately and compared to the Bible he is the Model T and the Bible the Rolls Royce.
2. I didn't say 'historical.' I said prophetic. Big difference.
3. I didn't say 'found in coal.' I said embeded in coal, i.e. coal considered far too old for humans according to conventional science.
4. Have you viewed the clips of the EXODUS REVEALED video on my THE EXODUS REVEALED thread?

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 04-15-2004 11:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 04-16-2004 12:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 24 by 1.61803, posted 04-16-2004 12:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 04-16-2004 12:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 23 of 95 (100311)
04-16-2004 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
04-15-2004 11:53 PM


Hi Buzz, Good come back.. I will take a look. Be sure to let everyone else know about this evidence as well...

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 24 of 95 (100316)
04-16-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
04-15-2004 11:53 PM


1. No I dont buy it.. Nostradamus or any other yahoo that makes prophesy that comes to pass only shows coincidence. Regardless of who makes the predictions.
2.You were referencinga archeological find in regards to the bible, I stated that historical writings secular or biblical are just that..Historical documentation. This does not mean every story in the Bible should be taken literal just because SOME of the writings are historically correct.
3. Please provide the link or source or this Embeded in coal find. I still do not know the significance. Is it impossible for coal to have something younger than it embeded in it? Limestone is older than the tree that is growing in it in my back yard.. Yet I am not claiming the limestone is contemporary with the tree.
4.Please provide the link to your EXODUS revealed thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 25 of 95 (100317)
04-16-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
04-15-2004 11:53 PM


Your Exodus revealed commercial was not evidence of nothing other than to prove some people can be bullshitted out of 49.99 or what ever that tape cost you. I guess if you believe it is all that matters buz, I am not convinced by that commercial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 26 of 95 (100341)
04-16-2004 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
04-15-2004 11:26 PM


Well let's consider this "evidence"
1) You keep SAYING that there are fulfilled prophecies but you can't find one good example - in fact the prophecies discussed often turn out to be failures. So the "evidence" is that you make claims that you cannot support and which - on examination - turn out to be false. Oh and that you don't care if your claims are shown to be false and you repeat the claims anyway.
2) The "specific" documentation is that Ron Wyatt and his followers say so and have a few pictures - which don't establish a "graveyard" and may well involve "planted" material. Since we know that Ron Wyatt made many grandiose claims and that there is evidence of fraud on his part you cannot seriously suggest that this is significant evidence.
3) All *old* anecdotes where the details can't be traced. IIRC the "London Hammer" was an example and the best evidence is that that is NOT ancient.
4) You mean according to your misrepresentations of numerous Biblical prophecies.
5) You mean anecdotes - oh yes, and calling people evil becuse they don't follow your religion.
Not much in the way of evidence for the existence of God there. Or of evidence that the authors of the Bible were inspired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 04-15-2004 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 95 (101440)
04-21-2004 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by funkman
04-09-2004 3:28 PM


Very true!
This is very true,and very well put.
The bible has shown itself to be very useful
in archeaology many times over,and people in
the bible did exist,and so did the places.
Archeaology has helped greatly to prove this.
The Bible is very accurate even today,but for
those who cannot believe it,it will appear false,
because just as many people think Darwin contradicted
himself,and at first it does appear this way,many will
believe that the bible does the same.
God's word will never pass away.

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by funkman, posted 04-09-2004 3:28 PM funkman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 04-21-2004 3:06 AM desdamona has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 95 (101441)
04-21-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by desdamona
04-21-2004 3:00 AM


and people in
the bible did exist,and so did the places.
Verona Italy exists - I've been there - and there's even a statue of Juliet Capulet. (You rub her left breast for luck in love.)
That doesn't mean that Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is a true story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 3:00 AM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by desdamona, posted 04-21-2004 3:22 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2004 5:55 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 95 (101443)
04-21-2004 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:01 PM


evidence?
an evil generation always wants a sign,but none will be given it,
except for the sign of Jonah.Don't listen to God and you could be
swallowed whole too!
Well,thats what I believe can happen.
Where is your evidence that supports evolution?
There are many christian scientists,and many other
scientists that don't accept the evolution idea,so who
are you believing and putting all your trust in?
Do you get to tell us which scientists are worthy of trust?
Trust no man!

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 04-09-2004 7:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 04-21-2004 9:22 AM desdamona has replied

  
desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 95 (101444)
04-21-2004 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by BobAliceEve
04-10-2004 10:30 AM


Re: Good job
Thanks for that great post.You have great faith.
God is the only answer,amen.

Desdamona

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by BobAliceEve, posted 04-10-2004 10:30 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by BobAliceEve, posted 04-23-2004 5:38 AM desdamona has replied

  
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