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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 3 of 231 (327109)
06-28-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-28-2006 3:16 AM


The Ark in Frostburg Maryland
There is a guy in Western Maryland supposedly constructing an ark to the original dimensions. He is cheating, though, it has a steel superstructure and a concrete foundation - he doesn't intend to ever try to float it.

http://www.godsark.org/html/the_construction.html

Anyway, the dimensions he is using are 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.

So far he has the footings poured and about a third of the steel superstructure erected, according to his website. He has been at it since 1976, maybe he thinks he is going to live as long as Noah. According to his website several "miracles" have already occured. Here are the ones listed on the website - many more are claimed.

Ark Website writes:

Steel reinforcement rod was needed and God spoke to a man to donate it. Anchor bolts were needed and they were donated. Cement forms were needed and a man visited the site who “happened” to be a cement form salesman. Wages were needed to begin construction, and God instructed a man to give a large donation just before it was time to begin work that year.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 82 of 231 (328156)
07-01-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by alacrity fitzhugh
07-01-2006 8:45 PM


Just install an aqueduct system. The ducts could be open in the animal holding area . Thus the rain water flows down through the ducts the waste is shoveled into the ducts. The water then transports the waste to a holding area that allows pressure build up. then it uses the pressure to flow the waste out of the ship.No need for pump systems at all.

What about when it quits raining? Still have 325 days to go. It is either lower buckets into the sea or pumps. Plus there is the water leaking into the bilge of a 450 foot long wooden boat. I definitely think some kind of pumps are needed.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 88 of 231 (328287)
07-02-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
07-01-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
if we can suppose nothing at all then no discussion is possible. So I won't be able to discuss it with you.

What you really are saying is that if we aren't going to allow "deus ex machina" solutions and inventions more than four millenia before their time then no discussion is possible. Well welcome to the world of reality where we can't rely on miracles and "back to the future" solutions. Come up with supposed solutions that have a basis in two millenia B.C. reality and maybe we can discuss it.


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 Message 89 by iano, posted 07-02-2006 3:15 PM deerbreh has responded

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 96 of 231 (328350)
07-02-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
07-02-2006 3:15 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Floats, levers, pivots = back to the future? Simple materials + intelligence. Nothing more is required. And if nothing more is required than that then it is possible. Very possible

Fine. Show us some archeological evidence from the 4th millenium BC that pumps were being made and used. Surely old Noah and his sons made use of his marvelous water pumps after they disembarked from the Ark? Otherwise it is just more "Goddidit" nonsense.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 98 of 231 (328357)
07-02-2006 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
07-02-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Well Noah MIGHT have had a shaduf, which is essentially a lever with a bucket on the end. There is no evidence of anything more sophisticated than that at the time. No evidence of water wheels, for example, that I know of, anyway. If Ian has evidence of water wheels and reciprocating pumps in the 4th millenium B.C. let him produce it. Enough with could have, would have, might have been possible history.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 102 of 231 (328482)
07-03-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
07-03-2006 5:50 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
"Man hadn't progressed this far" is a red-herring. It seeks to sidestep the fact that there is nothing at all stopping Noah.....

It is not a red herring unless you are willing to evoke "Goddidit". Either the technology was available or it wasn't. We don't discount the fact that Noah could have come up with some innovations - but then there should be some archeological evidence that sometime in the 4th millenium B.C. in the Middle East some breakthroughs in water pumping technology occured that would have allowed pumping the bilge of a 450 foot long wooden ship, for example. This technology would have been highly useful post Flood so we would have expected Noah and his decendents to have used that technology and there would be archeological evidence of it. But no, all we have is the shaduf and no evidence of any advancement beyond that. If you have some other evidence, now is the time to produce it.

It is the equivalent of saying that William the Conquerer crossed the English Channel in 1066 using airplanes.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 107 of 231 (328511)
07-03-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by iano
07-03-2006 10:25 AM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
It did not need to be available. It needed to be thought up. And it is simple technology.

So "simple" that the first evidence we have of use of an "Archimedes screw" in Mesopotamia is about 600 B.C., some 3000 years later, if you believe the YEC timeline. And you are arguing both sides - on the one hand you would have Noah and Sons to be technological geniuses before and during the Flood and on the other hand you would have them adopting a Luddite mentality after the Flood. And of course it is all so much speculation. The history of the world is that once a new technology is discovered and adopted, it is disseminated, improved upon, and disseminated some more. But in the case of Noah, he hits upon a pumping technology that is at least 3000 years ahead of his time and he and his progeny promptly abandon it, even though it would have been extremely useful for transporting water for people, livestock, and to irrigate crops. Yes, that is a reasonable proposition.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 122 of 231 (328608)
07-03-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by iano
07-03-2006 12:01 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Your "technology propagates" argument simply points to the technology that has propagated.

You might have a point if we were not talking about something so fundamental as a way of moving water. Water is even more important than food in human societies. It boggles the mind that an invention as useful as Archimedes Screw or its equivalent wouldn't have been utilized by the generations following Noah.

For example: the mind that conceived of the ark and the minds that generated solutions which built it might as easily be amongst those who perished. For all we know Noah & Sons might have had two left hands when it came to things engineering.

First of all, you are conveniently adding to scripture to buttress your position. My Bible says that God conceived AND designed the Ark and told Noah how to proceed. There is no mention of consulting engineers. Damn shabby of Noah to let them drown, by the way. Besides if he were such a klutz you would think he would have taken at least one with him to fix things. Secondly, you have been maintaining all along that these are simple solutions and that is why Noah would have thought of them. Now you are suddenly saying they are so complex that they couldn't have been copied by Noah's clan. Which is it?


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 124 of 231 (328618)
07-03-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by iano
07-03-2006 4:09 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Firstly, I am not supposing water being pumped. That supposes leaks which I do not

Denial is a wonderful thing, is it not? A 450 foot wooden boat packed to the decks with animals, food and supplies in water rough enough to run your manure "pumps" is going to leak before it breaks apart completely.

I am talking semi-solid sludge from animal waste - this is far easier to pump than water

I will inform my dairy farmer friends. They will be extremely pleased to hear this little known "fact". Have you even ever been on a farm and seen a liquid manure disposal system in operation?

This train is a dead end for you Deerbrah. Why might the technology not have propagated. Who knows? We can only speculate

First of all it is not MY train - it is YOUR train. It was dead before you started. And there is no need to speculate about why the technology was not propagated when you have not established that there was any technology to propogate. Therein lies the speculation.

And it has not escaped my notice that you completely blew off my question of why Noah suddenly became a klutz and needs consulting engineers when before you were claiming that the pump technology was so simple that anyone with "intelligence and simple materials" could figure it out. If Noah is suddenly such a dummy how did he manage the Ark project?


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 125 of 231 (328623)
07-03-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by iano
07-03-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Whatever floats your boat
Whilst you might suggest "any technology at all" I do not. A boat (think float) is not hi-tech. A lever operating around a fulcrum is about as basic as it comes.

A ocean going 450 foot wooden boat is not high tech???? OK. Denial is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

A lever is basic yes, getting it to pump liquid manure, no.
A wheel is actually just a lever operating around a fulcrum as well. But I hardly think that it is "basic" if that means simple.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 174 of 231 (330794)
07-11-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by riVeRraT
07-11-2006 6:58 AM


I am not an engineer but i think a 450 foot wooden
ship would pitch AND roll. Particularly if it was built anything along the lines of how the illustrated bibles picture it. This guy in Frostburg Maryland is supposedly going to build full sized replica according to Bible specs and he has a drawing here....
http://www.godsark.org/html/the_construction.html

That sucker is going to roll. No stabilizers either. So in addition the shit piling up, there is puke everwhere.


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Replies to this message:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 176 of 231 (330798)
07-11-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
07-11-2006 10:57 AM


Re: I am not an engineer but i think a 450 foot wooden
That sucker will only pitch or roll in an earthquake. It ain't going nowhere

Right. first of all, it will never get built. The steel superstructure is about as far as they are going to get, imo.
But I was think if it accurately depicts the Bible design in Genesis, if it were to be launched, it would roll and pitch.


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