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Author Topic:   The Ark - materials, construction and seaworthness
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 8 of 231 (327178)
06-28-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iano
06-28-2006 10:17 AM


If you plan on considering an idea of self-siphoning pumps you may want to look into some physics, specifically work energy theorem and wave motion (longitudal) and probably methods for harnessing those waves and don't forget to look up engines as well. Those are probably some of the tools you may need to bring your thoughts into action.

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 10 of 231 (327186)
06-28-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
06-28-2006 12:41 PM


how would you apply a recipoircating pump to your boat?

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 14 of 231 (327197)
06-28-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
06-28-2006 1:07 PM


Surely I am asking you to explain to me, how to convert the up down action of the ark relative to the surface of the water into a pump.

And explain to me how the ark moves at all relative to the surface of the water when simple harmonic motion of a particle on a longitudal wave shows that relative to the wave the particle stays in the same place. <http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/ntnujava/viewtopic.php?t=39>. That is an example of what you are considering. What you will notice if you keep dampened and forced oscillation at 0 (as it would be on the ark) is that the mass relative to the spring does not move. The mass move relative to us but not to the spring.

This can be applied to the ark as well. The ark if we were looking at it would be moving up and down on the ocean (if we call the ocean our spring), but realtive to the ocean it is not moving up and down. So to calrify I am asking how do you convert a non-existing up and down motion of the ark relative to the ocean into energy?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 15 of 231 (327199)
06-28-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
06-28-2006 12:57 PM


Re: Does it matter?
Well we do know how large Noah's ark is because that is as stated as in the bible 450' X 75' X 45'/

However, we do not know how large a ship would have to be that would carry every type of animal/plant immaginable and their food/water source for a year.

Its akin to me saying i can fit every marble into the world into one of my standard kitchen garbage bags. So i take every marble in the world i know about and fit them into my garbage bag. To me its every marble in the world because i can't find anymore but to you well..you probably have a couple dozen i can fit into the bag.


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 16 of 231 (327204)
06-28-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
06-28-2006 1:07 PM


And also an application of what you are talking about is something akin to a tidal generator. Where a generator is used to harness the energy in the tides. The way it works is that the turbine is fixed to the sea floor so that water that comes in and out of the generator then moves relative to the generator. So the turbine can then turn.

If you did not fix the generator to the sea floor what would occur is that the generator would move backwards and forwards with the tide, and then the turbine would not move thus the generator would not generate energy.


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 19 of 231 (327211)
06-28-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
06-28-2006 1:43 PM


You state pitch and the rolling causes would provide the motion for the ark to drive the pump.

As an extension then what causes the pitch and rolling of the ark? And how does this overall pump work in removing waste from the ark?

Edited by Discreet Label, : clarification


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 24 of 231 (327227)
06-28-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
06-28-2006 2:14 PM


So again if you were to start harnessing this, how would your pump harness this power. Your resistance idea is seemingly reasonable, so how does the resistence you speak of translate into energy for the pump?

(if you'd like to test this you could take a piece of wood, cut hole in the wood, slip a sheet of metal through and then attach the the metal to a pump and start some wave action in the pool, to see how much the pump may actually move, then move onto a small boat and so on...)


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 35 of 231 (327263)
06-28-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
06-28-2006 2:48 PM


So you have now generated an 'ideal' pump mechanism that does some form of pumping if there is minimal forward or backwards motion of the boat.

What occurs if the boat is actually moving forward or backwards since there is no a horiontal resistance?

How difficult is it to hold a large surface aread object over the side of the boat while waves pull and push it? On the scale you are describing how much horizontal force do you expect to occur? The eye you are discussing how is it to be attached to the ark?

What occurs if the horizontal forces in the wave action shatter your eye? Will the shattering take a side of the ark with it?

Biblically, are funny seesaw wings supported by the description of the ark? Are you purposing to add more to the bible?

Since there was no mention of a mechanism to control the up or down stroke how do you prevent either one of the strokes from either poking a hole in the bottom of your ship or your piston leaving the cylinder it is in? How large would the displacement of your cylinder be?

How would your purposed mechanism shift the center of gravity of the boat? What occurs if the center of gravity of the boat is above the waterline? Does this mechanism make the boat more prone to capsizing?

What kind of torque does your upper horizontal piece of timber experience? What prevents that piece of timber from shattering?

Why do moving ships not put anything over the side like you are suggesting?

And again you have only described a cylinder and its piston, how would you purpose again to harvest the energy to pump your ship?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 36 of 231 (327265)
06-28-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by iano
06-28-2006 3:13 PM


How do you feel your working design is acceptable? What kind of conditions would this pump work in? Could you describe these conditions? For example high winds or large waves or anything else?

How would the conditions affect your pump mechanisms? For example would large waves over torque your arm and shatter it?

It would be important if you could explain the piston pump as well, because i'm still uncertain how you are taking this piston and using it to pump out waste from your ship?

Also I find your tone in

quote:
Discreet Label (to whom I was responding) is smart enough to get the rest
to be persuming quite a bit. For one you are asking me to read your mind Iano by assuming i can get the rest because I can not be sure how you mean everything right?

Would you like me to be able to read your mind iano? do you want me to? What would i discover if i started to read your mind Iano, and started to know you? What would i learn about you?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 51 of 231 (327322)
06-28-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
06-28-2006 5:46 PM


I'm not going to ignore the rest of the post but we do need to work out something. (137.17 meters by 22.86 by 13.716 meters). You have mentioned using

quote:
Noah being the age he is has probably seen the destrutive forces of nature before. A good place to position the apparatus would not be 'outside' the ark where wind and wave load can load its elegant structure. I say 'outside': there is nothing to stop the side plain of the boat being somewhat castellated and then sheeting the castellations off in order to provide pockets behind the sheeting which are open to the ocean below - no wind, no waves, or currents just a still body of water that swells and decays according to the rolling of the ark or larger, slower swells in the main body of water

This avoids the need for heavily reinforced structures


So how much will this affect the integrity of your ship?

how much room will these open spaces occupy? will they be open to the complete top of the ship to prevent constrition of air flow in both up or down strokes? (constriction of air flow will create a great deal of resistence to the motion up or down). Remember the more of these that you put in the less room you have for your animals and assorted food stuffs as well since you a working with fixed dimensions.

And again i am still uncertain how your pump works could you provide me a refrence to the pump design yours is designed around?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 53 of 231 (327327)
06-28-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
06-28-2006 8:25 PM


Re: Waving hand. I know the answer!call on me!!
I would be inclined to agree with you, but there is some small validity to building pivots that are off set from the center of gravity of the boat. Whether or not the thought experiment we are building in this thread is valid is a different case.

But who knows at least this thread is having a reasonable amount and decent engagement with the creos, i'll be getting my first refrence as to how this particular style of pump works (since it is a variation of one thats probably already made)


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 57 of 231 (327477)
06-29-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
06-29-2006 5:29 AM


So how much will this affect the integrity of your ship?

No need to affect it at all (over an above the general seaworthiness issues) Consider the pockets to be an internal add-ons onto the existing plain box structure.

It is a question that should be considered. I feel placing these pumps within the ship reduces the number of cross beams (port to starboard). Thus reducing the integrity of the ship toward port to starboard stresses. So unless you want a solitary wave 6 months into the voyage to break Noah's ark, it probably should be considered.

And again i am still uncertain how your pump works could you provide me a refrence to the pump design yours is designed around

This is a bespoke item and is not designed around pumps because there were no other pumps around to base the design on. There have been many, many copies of the principles used however. You know those oil well pumps you see out in Texas (at least I think it was there - I saw them on Dallas years ago). They are quite similar although power source rocking the beam is different.

Would you happen to be referring to this Pumpjack which in turn requires a Borehole which is required for Submersible Pump which in turn is how a pump jack operates?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 59 of 231 (327482)
06-29-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
06-29-2006 11:49 AM


Several specific considerations you may want to look into, includes reading the borehole information as well as how a submersible pump operates.

Pay attention to how a borehole is created as well as what kind of environment it needs for it to be able to operate (pressurized unpressurized). After you have read the information could you post what you understood from the material?


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 61 of 231 (327547)
06-29-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-29-2006 12:04 PM


Then what it looks like is seems perfectly fine, However what something looks like can and will tend to be completely different from how something is operated. Consider a toilet roll tube can look like, act like and seem like a toilet roll tube, but it can be a gun as well (spring gun). The horsehead in this case i picture how the thing moves and outside of that well we need to focus on the mechanism by which it operates. So again i would ask you to take a look at what borehole, and submersible pumps do.

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3616 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 64 of 231 (327575)
06-29-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by iano
06-29-2006 7:10 PM


To be truthful this is where it does matter, you have a distinct oppurtunity to support that there is a pump system that will fit the ark and that you know the proposed mechanism or you can find it. At this point you must demonstrate it. Because you now claim that there is a feasible pumping mechanism you must either demonstrate it or admit you are wrong, at this point you are at extreme risk of bearing false witness if you continue to contend that you have support.

To my understanding that is a very serious offense in your religion. Ethically its a very serious offense for me so i would not ask you to do something that I would not do, which is support your statements.

Also you contend that there is another pump type that will possibly work? could you please show it to me? Wikipedia is an excellet site and has a number of pages devoted to pump devices that are used or have been used throughout time?

Find me a pump design that works has been used, either that or document yourself working one (that will work on the boat like you describe) and write down how you built it as well as some footage of it pumping, and i'll be more than happy to build it to verify that it works.

People making things with enormous success long before engineers were ever thought of is not true especially if you talk about success in terms of how long a method was used and how long the structure stayed around as well as the kind of output that was put into it. I'm pretty damn sure American infrastructure will be around for a great deal longer time then any other ancient civilizations buildings.


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