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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 144 of 303 (323222)
06-19-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by RickJB
06-19-2006 5:33 AM


Am I supposed to find that somehow admirable?
LOL. There are many people like you. You will find that no where in any post I ever write or have writen do I ever or will I ever quote people.
My thoughts are my own when it comes to questions of this nature.
Given that you are currently attempting a philosophical discussion, this assertion makes you look very silly indeed.
That is your individual view. You are welcome to it. Considering the nature of the beast I find it quite humorous when people have to study philosophy. Every person has the capacity to ask and answer thier own questions in this realm. It appears to me tht your attitude reflects a belief that there is some philosophical standard that I am falling short of in some imagined way. A person can philosophise anything. People can agree or disagree. The fact is in order for a person to give it creedance within thier reason it requires acceptance or belief. There is no right or wrong. Only points of view. That is the nature of this topics question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 5:33 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 12:01 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 147 of 303 (323395)
06-19-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by RickJB
06-19-2006 12:01 PM


Are there? What am I like, then?
Oh what the heck....I'll take a stab at it.
You are a person who is convinced they have seen it all before and appear to have an attitude to match. Your attitude toward me has been quite condecending. You likely have little patients when it come to dealing with people in general. You consider life cliche which stems from your feeling of superiority. You likely often look through people when you talk to them unless you have some type of respect for them which for you likely comes quite painfully. Generally you simply have quite an edge about you.
Oh do please flick that chip of your shoulder! Your ideas are about as original as a Hollywood sequel! If you took the trouble to read the work of others you'd be better informed and far less cocky to boot.
I have not nor will I ever claim my thoughts are original in a sense of no one else ever having thought or said them. Perhaps someone has. That is irrelevent to the fact that they are the way I see things through my own reason. That is what the topics question called for. Views on the proposal of whether or not animals have souls.
I have simply stated the way I see things based upon my observations. I have all the same data to work from anyone else has ever had or needed. It's called life. No one corners the market there. You have simply made assumptions about me from your experience as I now have about you in return. However I did not ask for your opinion of me. It would have been much more constructive to comment on my views for what they are concerning the topics question or, state your own if you have any and refrain from the peanut gallery comments.
No-one operates in a conceptual vacuum. Einstein, Newton, Leonardo, Aristotle, Plato - all openly built on the ideas of others.
You are no exception.
Indeed. One needs input to formulate ideas. In this area of thought my sources are not yours.
Perhaps you would like to comment on the topics question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 12:01 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 6:02 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 149 of 303 (323449)
06-19-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by RickJB
06-19-2006 6:02 PM


This from a philosopher who can't be bothered to study philosophy
Those are your words. I never said I can't be bothered. What I'm saying is one does not need to.
Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm very aware about what I don't know, and would struggle to define any kind of universal philosophy even with the benefit of a lifetime's learning and experience.
Well of course you would struggle. In fact in vain. There is no universal philosophy. There is only opinion based on reason. Since we all view the world a little differently there will always be sides to the fence. I'm never apposed to peekin over the fence.
So, anyway, Yah gonna share your view on this subject? Or is the whole thing too cliche for yah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 6:02 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 6:23 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 151 of 303 (323955)
06-20-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by RickJB
06-19-2006 6:23 PM


Thank Mr. RickJB
Now, with regard to the topic I would propose animals having degrees of consciousness that are dependent on their particular brain function.
That would seem a very likely probability. I have those same thoughts.
My ownly reservation there is that we know little enough about our own kind and there may be states of conciousness living things opperate in that we are not aware of. It isn't like we can have an in depth conversation with other living things to ask them thier opinion. A clinical experiment does not touch the meaning of things which other living things may very well experience as we do or perhaps meaningful but in different ways. By meaningful I mean in an emotional, moral, value sense.
On this scale humans would qualify as being particularly self-aware.
Yes, under our currently self center understanding. We place ourselves as the benchmark.
I see no need for a "soul". One could place me in the "materialist" camp, I suppose
I very much see your point. It can be seen that soul is not needed for the biological process to function. I am currious...you reffer to
"a" soul. Does this mean you see soul as a component? I identify soul with self. We get down to: does the "self" continue? Hence your reluctance to use the term soul.
I have followed your line of thinking and it leads me down this path.
1)What does your body need to live?
2)What behaviour do we exhibit that goes far beyond the basic needs of the body. None of this activity is needed.
Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect. All these things and the behaviour that arises from them are not neccesary just as you see soul not to be. We also experience these things yet can exercise control or restraint. I experience....I choose. This is not needed for biological functioning to take place. So when you when you say that "a soul" is not needed in my view I am not needed. When I follow your line of thingking there is no "I"
"I" know this not to be the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by RickJB, posted 06-19-2006 6:23 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by RickJB, posted 06-20-2006 6:02 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 153 by kalimero, posted 06-21-2006 6:13 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 154 of 303 (324730)
06-22-2006 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by kalimero
06-21-2006 6:13 AM


Actually, these emotions (Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect.) are an essential part of the survival of social creatures like us - maybe not as basic as a heart - but still essential. The ability to interact with other individuals is crucial for survival.
I do not see it this way. Your above statement has no basis in fact other than peoples assumption of reasons to explain the phenomenon of socialization. I would like you to explain to me how you feel these things are essential. I simply do not see the need for them. How do you explain the survival of countless other animals in this line of thinking? Would you catagorize the ability to choose ones path freely as a social skill that is essential? The concept of free will is equally as non essential as the concept of soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by kalimero, posted 06-21-2006 6:13 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 7:33 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 160 by kalimero, posted 06-22-2006 3:50 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 155 of 303 (324741)
06-22-2006 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by RickJB
06-20-2006 6:02 PM


When I say I see no need for a "soul", I refer to the concept of a soul as an eternal manifestation that exists beyond the physical.
So your view would be the same then for the concept of free will?
What would be your take in the concept of free will?
I prefer to speak of "a self" or "an ego" as they are terms with less theological weight.
My ego is, I feel, a product of my own biological brain function. When that ceases, "I" cease. It's the same with other animals - their consciousness ends with their death.
"I" am curious how you can speak of ego in the possesive or speak of things in the possesive in general. How is a biological chemical reaction inherantly different from any other? Could not all funtioning systems both biological and non biological be thought of in the same way? If not, then what is the concept of "I"
So to sum up my views:
1. Many animals display some form of consciousness. We are one such animal.
2. None of us animals has an eternal "soul". Our "ego" is bound by our our own physcial existence (although one might envision technology being able one day to store or host an "ego" function).
Please correct me if I have misunderstood.
1)Animals display biological funcions. I will not use the term "we"
you already explained as a function.
2)No animal has a soul. The phenomonon of "ego"= biological function
So biological functions are bound by physical existence.
Living things are relatively brief chemical reactions.
What is "I"?
"I" feel the need to refer to "you" as "biological function", as this is how "you" identify "yourself." Have "I" misunderstood? There are some biological funcions that claim to be causal effects but when "I" reffered to them this way they became offended. I do not wish to offend. Just to understand.
I reffer to myself as a soul. You may call me taters

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by RickJB, posted 06-20-2006 6:02 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 7:41 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 158 of 303 (324884)
06-22-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by RickJB
06-22-2006 7:33 AM


They fit perfectly well. All animals use social behaviors to mate
,
Rape happens all the time in all species. What is social about it?
The concept of social itself. Explain this better.
Some, like Dogs, co-operate in packs in order to hunt. Social interaction of one form or enother is essential to all animals. We are no different.
If I have understood you correctly:
Social interaction requires ego
Ego is a biological function.
So social interactions are biological funtions of chemical reactions identified as living things? Chemical reactions co-operate? There are a lot of assumptions there. I am simply trying to understand some fundamental basis for this particular function of a chemical reaction that I have been observing. The concept of "I" is not necessary for social interaction. Social interaction is simple biological funtion.
Am I understanding?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 7:33 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by kalimero, posted 06-22-2006 4:04 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
 Message 162 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 5:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 4:15 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 4:17 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 159 of 303 (324904)
06-22-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by RickJB
06-22-2006 7:41 AM


How is one oil painting any different from another - they are both formed from paint and canvas aren't they?
Yes this is a good question. How are they different?
We all have the same chemical function, but, for reasons which are as yet not well understood to science we appear to use those functions to build individual "egos". I suppose another good analogy would be the way in which no two snowflakes are structurally alike...
Again as I understand the biological function I am now observing there is no need for the concept of "self" / "ego" / "I". It is not necessary to explain the biological function. Just random variations of biological function as one function ineracts with another.
It makes much more sense if terms such as "we" or "I" are omitted,
Would you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 7:41 AM RickJB has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 163 of 303 (325061)
06-22-2006 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by RickJB
06-22-2006 5:05 PM


Not really, since an anthropologist might well argue that the ego itself is a mechanism used for survival.
So this interaction is happening between two mechanisms of survival?
The concept of ego appears to fit only as it relates to mechanism. The concept of self is not necessary.
By giving us the ability to reflect and build on past experience our ego allows us to learn new things and to adapt to our environment.
It would make much more sense without the use of posessives. There really is no need for them.
Humans have been spectacularly successful as a species due to their ability to adapt and learn (as well as breed)
So this mechanism is defined by the success of the chemical process?
Not *too* many! We know the chemical compositions and processes of life very well. The processes of the brain, I grant you, are still far from well understood, but science never stops...!
This should not matter as the function of the brain is nothing more than a part of a chemical proccess. All evidence that exists points to this. Any further proccesses or mechanisms discovered still would not require the need for the concept of self. All that is required to explain the interactions are the concepts of mechanisms and chemical processes.
I am trying to understand what I am relating to. If I understand correctly I am experiencing interaction with the effects of a proccess of chemical reactions.
You cut to the chase! I like that!
I have always been a cut to the chase kind of soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by RickJB, posted 06-22-2006 5:05 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 4:08 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 164 of 303 (325071)
06-22-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by kalimero
06-22-2006 3:50 PM


The concept of free will is equally as non essential as the concept of soul.
I agree.
What is "I" The concept of "I" is equally as non essential as both free will and soul.
What is an explanation for the mechanism of this interaction taking place? What is it's essential definition? I am trying to understand what I am experiencing.
I understand the links the interaction led to. However they are from other interactions. I am interested in understanding this one and the nature of what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by kalimero, posted 06-22-2006 3:50 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by kalimero, posted 06-23-2006 1:53 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 172 of 303 (325313)
06-23-2006 11:52 AM


I have watched Male mallard ducks gang up and relentlessly hound a female until she has been humped to exhaustion and drowned. This is a relatively common occurance
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 12:41 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 175 of 303 (325406)
06-23-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by kalimero
06-23-2006 1:53 PM


Actually, these emotions (Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect.) are an essential part of the survival of social creatures like us - maybe not as basic as a heart - but still essential. The ability to interact with other individuals is crucial for survival.
I dont think he meant that a soul is not essential for our survival, but that the concept of a soul is not essential in order to explain things such as emotion and conscience - I tend to agree.
Not really, I think the noun is what your looking for:
The concept of "I" as "self" is also not neccessary as soul or free will.
I dont know what that means.
What is this I am experiencing?
You cant. You can only experience your understanding - I'm sorry if that was a bit poetic, I'll explain - in order to understand something you must experience it (there is no, as far as I know an understanding of the world independent of experience) therefore by trying to understand something (by experiencing it) you inevitably affect it and thus recive an "incorrect" (very tentatively) understanding of it.
The nature of this experience is very unclear. I am apparently interacting with myself.
This is very vague...try to focus on one aspect and choose your words as they are defined - or else I will not know what you mean.
The experienced has led me to links. I am attempting to understand the nature of what I am interacting with. This is still unclear to me.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by kalimero, posted 06-23-2006 1:53 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by kalimero, posted 06-24-2006 6:42 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 177 of 303 (325685)
06-24-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by kalimero
06-24-2006 6:42 AM


I am trying to understand what a kalimero is.
I am very unclear on this. The nature of the experience of kalimero has not made itself clear to me. Anything I have encountered has been quite vague.
You cant interact with yourself
I am interacting with myself now.
As I stated - you can only answer this question by experiencing the world - because thats really the only tool you have.
(AKA science).
science defines all experience? What a foolish thought. I have disreguarded this notion.
Assertions.Please provide the logic behind it.
Applies this thought directly to the experience below.
As I see it the sense of self is crucial in order to understand the relationships between yourself and the outside world, enabling you to consiencly change your actions in order to better your life and thus survive and procreate and pass on you "self-conscience"-genes.
I am experiencing genes. I see no reason for the concept of "I" or "self" to explain genes.
I am a soul having an encounter with kalimero genes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by kalimero, posted 06-24-2006 6:42 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2006 2:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 179 by kalimero, posted 06-25-2006 2:52 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 182 of 303 (326312)
06-26-2006 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by kalimero
06-25-2006 2:52 AM


It doesnt have to. Though I see no reason why genes cant explain "self".
Since "self" has no explanation and no physical proof we might as well say that genes explain fairies, gnomes, elves and a host of other non physical things.
You cant experience genes (unless under a microscope) - you can experience their expressions, which are not nesseserily influenced completely by the genes. What you experience is a combination of many different influences.
So the interaction of the kalimero that I am experiencing is the expression of influenced genes.
Kalimero is expression?
I am experiencing the expression kalimero?
This experience is confusing. What is Kalimero?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by kalimero, posted 06-25-2006 2:52 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by kalimero, posted 06-26-2006 5:18 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 185 by ramoss, posted 06-26-2006 10:48 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 183 of 303 (326313)
06-26-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by ramoss
06-24-2006 2:13 PM


I would say that 'YOU' are a bunch of neurons that form the shape of an analog computer that is having an encounter with another analog computer that has the designation of "Kalimero".
I am interacting with an anolog computer?
Ramoss is an analog computer
I am still not sure what a kalimero is
I am a soul.
Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2006 2:13 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ramoss, posted 06-26-2006 10:50 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

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