For ToErs Eyes Only

I've only been on here a short time but can see the points that are being made, in the few discussions I've had on here I have most certainly come up against the diversionary tactics of creo's on here,
and the blatant ignoring of questions posed.Like many of the personal discussions I've had with christians, the same stalemate appears again and again. no amount of scientific evidence will overcome faith (or the stubborness associated with it)THe problem I find is that while refusing scientific evidence to disprove the bible they will willingly (mis)use science to try to disprove evolution.Personally it is not my wish to destroy anyones faith, but if they come on here and take part in a debate they should expect to have their beliefs challenged rigourously.One thing springs to mind where in a discussion about the flood and geology a YEC opened with a comment along the lines of..."understand now that any attempt to disprove my belief will not be entertained and i will not take part"
In such a situation I felt a moderator should have stepped in and pointed out that if you are not willing to debate you have no place on a debating forum.recently I was in a thread with Iano talking about choice we came to a stalemate... i believed there was none (and felt I showed this) iano believed there was(and no doubt felt he showed this). Iano left the debate and moved on.. leaving me hungry for more discussion. Of course internally I saw this a a victory for me.. I'd frightened him off (he would of course disagree) but, I felt maybe there should be some etiquette involved if you decide to no longer take part in a discussion. make your reasons clear and bow out.On the whole it's not about "winning" or "losing". Reading and taking part in the debates here expand my knowledge and understanding of where both sides are coming from. Unfortunately I would say no creationist would ever say the same.come on folks... Can't we all be winners?
*group hug**cheesy grin*

I would qualifiy that to "they should expect to have their beliefs that are contradicted by well known facts to be challenged rigourously."I have no quarrel with beliefs that fit the facts.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Who are you talking to?

Good point. I was speaking in general, and I realize that the same could be said on the other side. But I have noted a snobbishness . . .

I think one of the problems with talking to believers is that the belief is often (but not always) tied up in the self perception of the individual. Look at at the 'discourse' among scientist with mutally exclusive ideas: it gets pretty heated.Challenging the belief is like challenging their personal qualities. In my job I can't mention religious beliefs at all! And my job is to look at peoples every day beliefs and perceptions with the intent to alleviate depression and anxiety.It's very hard to change belief. The spectre of "Yes but......" hoves into view. Being English I'm temped to say "Let them beleive what they like" but when I see George W acting like a religious leader with nukes it puts the fear of god into me.What can we do? Moderate our discourse, don't go off topic, stick to one concept in a tread, not have 3+ discussions going on. Spot the logical fallicies and point them out and above all don't go round in circles. If the message is not getting across don't waste your time.Stick to science. I don't think that any creo can stand against the scientific approach. (ok, so thats just my belief)

I agree! Leaving someone or many somones hanging is bad form. there are may polite ways to exit.IMO the creos are by far the worst offenders.I DO NOT understand why the Mods don't call them when they declare thier closed minds.

Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it?I've had similar thoughts, but I haven't given it "air-time" to think in depth. I'd appreciate your thoughts.Ben

Do you feel like some of the participants in this thread are arrogant and disrespectful towards you, or are you trying to help formulate plans of action that will be better received? I read your words but have no confidence that I know your position.I ask you in return, how do you behave when you show others fact after fact supporting your position while they maintain their position and provide no evidence what-so-ever? The creationist and IDers say nothing but "I believe," and reference books that are obviously flawed. Those who believe have never ever supported their beliefs and call blind faith a respectable and desired characteristic. That is a problem.You are right about arrogance and respect, but when faced with that kind of stubbornness and idiocy, restricting arrogance and maintaining respect can be extraordinarily difficult.

I think it doesn't hurt to treat people like they treat others. Kind people deserve kind treatment, arrogant people deserve arrogant treatment.You can start out kindly with everyone, but with some people there comes a moment when the kindliness wears thin.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example: Member T (ToE) states position X. Member B (Believer) objects and claims the ToE has holes and does not account for the beginning of life. Member T and others repeat that the ToE does not address that and counters all points from B. B continues to deny T’s position based on self referencing quotes from his bible. When pressed, B throws up a diatribe of nonsense and claims victory. When B’s response is closely examined, the words are essentially vacuous and do not respond to the points made by T. B continues to claim victory.Example: B claims that Genesis contains the actual facts of the creation of the universe and the earth, and the bible is the literal word of god. Both have been clearly refuted and B offers absolutely no supportable evidence.I don’t know your position, but if you agree with B, provide evidence. (in another thread)However, This is off topic from the original post. The question is: What can the ToEers do about this debate (ToE versus ID) and the refusal of believers to face up to the facts. To debate if the facts are correct, go to other threads. This one is based on the assumption that the facts are correct.BTW: General question: What is YEC?

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Truth fears no question.bkelly

I'm attempting to address that question by asking DHR if there's something more s/he thinks the admins should be doing in the debate. I have 0 interest in debating E vs. C here. Young Earth Creationist

Then I misconstrued that aspect of your posts. My appology

I wasn't talking about me. In fact, I'm one of the disrespectful sometimes, now that I think about it. I become irritated.But still, I think that I and others have been a little too contemptuous of somebody's serious religious beliefs at times.Something else that I have noticed is that people tend to jump to conclusions about someone's basic beliefs. Now that has happened to me many times, but then I like to jump around and play with different ideas.One more point: a poster might sound mighty ignorant about one topic, but that doesn't mean they are ignorant about everything.

Oh sure. Sometimes one wants to get 'em good.

Just saw this; baseball playoff starting so I will have a reply later.Thanks!