coded information in DNA

Why is this a challenge?I'm a piece of "coded information" that entered this world naturally. If you follow the history of organisms you'll also find that they enter this world naturally, until you get to...your defalt position...the origin of the first "living" cell - RNA.Which you then conclude IS NOT the result of natural chemical reactions, as has been everything else leading up to it, but is in fact the work of a "coding" designer, right...? - Print it up, I think you've got something there! Let's call it "irreducible complexity", no one will ever be able to...wait.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi WordBeLogos, This sounds like you are claiming I was artificially made...?I believe my parents did have sex, not that I want to think about that, but they did, and now I'm here - naturally.So you see in the case of ME, chemistry - human reproduction - came before the "coded information" that is me - and it was all natural. First, the elements that construct the "coded information" are found to exist prior to the coded information being found on this planet.So the laws of physics and chemistry pre-date DNA.Now, wouldn't you agree that nucleosynthesis, which is how these elements come to exist, fits quite well within your definition of coded information?The definition you provided:

quote:

---

The formal definition of a code according to Perlwitz and Waterman is a set of symbols that uniquely map a point in space "A" to a point in space "B." In other words there is special symbolic correspondence between a letter or word (idea) and a real physical entity.

---

The description of the Periodic Table of Elements

quote:

---

The layout of the periodic table demonstrates recurring ("periodic") chemical properties. Elements are listed in order of increasing atomic number (i.e., the number of protons in the atomic nucleus). Rows are arranged so that elements with similar properties fall into the same columns (groups or families). According to quantum mechanical theories of electron configuration within atoms, each row (period) in the table corresponded to the filling of a quantum shell of electrons. There are progressively longer periods further down the table, grouping the elements into s-, p-, d- and f-blocks to reflect their electron configuration.

​

In printed tables, each element is usually listed with its element symbol and atomic number; many versions of the table also list the element's atomic mass and other information, such as its abbreviated electron configuration, electronegativity and most common valence numbers.

---

The description of nucleosynthesis

quote:

---

Nucleosynthesis is the process of creating new atomic nuclei from preexisting nucleons (protons and neutrons). It is thought that the primordial nucleons themselves were formed from the quark-gluon plasma from the Big Bang as it cooled below two trillion degrees. A few minutes afterward, starting with only protons and neutrons, nuclei up to lithium and beryllium (both with mass number 7) were formed but only in relatively small amounts. This first process of primordial nucleosynthesis may also be called nucleogenesis. The subsequent nucleosynthesis of the elements (including all carbon, all oxygen, etc.) occurs primarily in stars, either by nuclear fusion (including neutron capture) or nuclear fission.

---

As per the above 2 descriptions I think:The Periodic Table of Elements are an example of: "a set of symbols that uniquely map a point in space "A" to a point in space "B."How: The table shows us a progressive order of increased atoms that take us from point A(hydrogen) to point B(helium). Using this method of going from point A to point B we can easily progress up the table of elements.That Nucleosynthesis is an example of: "there is special symbolic correspondence between a letter or word (idea) and a real physical entity.How: By the process of nucleosynthesis, which combines different atoms in high temperatures, we get all of the different elements found in the Periodic Table. It also follows a law of increased atoms, or increased complexity, as the elements get heavier.Furthermore, the letter (H) gives us a description of the gas hydrogen - which represents the physical entity.And by understanding nucleosynthesis we understand the orgin of all the physical elements.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So, by the definition that you provided, I think I have shown 2 things that fit the bill for "coded information"...Show me where I'm wrong, I challenge you.- oni

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

How do you know that natural processes do not? - because we don't see it occuring today?DNA exists, there was a point in time when it did not, so some kind of process happened, right? - So you think something supernatural had to construct this?What "organized" the complexity of this supernatural "thing" that was able to construct natural things? - And why don't we see this process today? Or, was it's only objective to simply organize a few chemicals then vanish, forever?Why do natural, chemical processes construct whole organisms now, each one different from the next?Wouldn't that require that the "original" information in the first DNA structure changed through time, causing the information to change also?Wouldn't a new set of information be required to change the DNA for every single species every time there's an enviromental change?- Oni

Fuzzy wuzzy was a what...?"An uncaused cause of all that is caused" - What does that even mean...?So, let me beg the question, 'cause I'm in the mood, why can't DNA fit the bill of "an uncaused cause of all organisms that are caused"?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Wait, don't go! I brought beer(s). - Oni

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

If all finite things have a cause, then it's ok to assume that DNA had a cause. The difference in your argument is that you invoke a supernatural causal agent, where as the rest of science invokes natural, chemical reactions.Let's assume that neither side has evidence for either position.What makes more sense to you, that natural chemical reactions that are known to exist, can be studied, can be verifed and checked, and experimented on, was the cause...?ORSome unknown force that can't be seen, studied, experimented on, that, mind you, breaks the laws of physics, and it itself has no known explanation, was the cause...Let me guess which one your heart tells you is the correct one? This would some-what make sense if DNA was the first known thing, element, chemical, to exist. As I pointed out to you in the post you ignored, the elements that make up DNA came way before DNA; so did the elements ALSO need a creator, or is it OK to go with nucleosynthesis?In other words, if DNA required devine intervention, then everything before it that makes up DNA must also require devine intervention. Because if not, what you are saying is that this unknown causing entity waited billions of years for all the elements to emerge naturally from the core of stars, waited til the stars went supernova, waited for a specific planet to contain all of the required elements in it's environment THEN said "you know what, let me arrange these few elements together to create something that I will then just leave alone to evolve."Sorry, dude, but that sounds crazy!Stars form, elements form within it, they go supernova, planets form, planets contain these elemnets and through the same natural order that gave us everything leading up to it, DNA forms from a more basic RNA.All this other stuff about "intelligence being the only thing that brings about codes" is just nonsense that you've fed yourself to justify a belief in God, that, while it works to satisfy your belief, fails miserably as a scientific hypothesis. You forget that DNA is also made up of smaller components. Elements, which have their origin in stars, who have their origin in hydrogen gas, which has it's origin at the Big Bang, which has it's origin in...DNA is finite in and of itself, but what makes it up is not. It regresses back all the way to the origin of our universe. Equally, you are finite as "Word", but your origin can also regress all the way back to the origin of the universe.Carl Sagan, man, "we are all star stuff"...not "supernatural stuff".- OniEdited by onifre, : cleaned up post a bitEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Yes, DNA is a natural process.You have not proven otherwise so this is still a fact.First prove that something other than natural exists, beyond your incredulous opinion, then you can argue that DNA is not natural because now there is another option, not just an imagined cause.You can't introduce your imaginary friend to answer scientific questions.- Oni

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

And you, we, know this by observation...? PROBLEM, the universe wasn't "created". The 4 dimentional universe we are in was not created out of nothing, it expanded from a quantum state, therefore there was something prior to the Big Bang. It just wasn't a dimentional space. Oh, swing and a miss. Thought you had it, didn't you?Try again.- Oni

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Hi Word, But it has been answered, you are just not satisfied. The code is found on earth, it dosn't come from anywhere. Just as all of the elements that chemically make up the DNA structure are found on this plaent as well. The question is not, where did the code come from? The question is, how did the elements arrange themselves into a simple proto-RNA structure that "evolved" into a more complex DNA structure? And so forth. From the simple to the complex, not, from the complex(god/designer) comes the simple that then evolves into complex.
That has never, ever been witnessed, both from humans or any other species, on this planet. So what you're suggesting lacks evidence to support it even as a hypothesis. Yes but not biological organisms that adapt and evolve and reproduce. You have no evidence of any kind of that type of "code" being built buy an intelligence. So you have nothing for evidence. Evading the questions? Not nice. But another type of mind doesn't work. You have only witnessed human minds produce codes, that's it. You have not seen any other type of mind, from the billions of minds in different species, develop anything. Further, you have no evidence for any other type of mind existing. That you can imagine some greater mind capable of creating anything, does nothing to support your argument, but it does say you have the ability to imagine. Which I never said you couldn't. Great job imagining something capable of creation, but where is your proof for it being a mind like ours, or even existing in the first place?So, imagine a being that has a mind and creates DNA on random planets, if you like, but without supporting evidence of another type of mind existing as complex as humans, there is nothing more to your argument than your imagined position. A human that speaks english. You missed the point. Why would this "god" not create all of it in one swoop. Why wait for all of these process to happen naturally to then intervene? That's a humans explanation of what that particular person feels DNA resembles. Did you feel he's 100% right? OK, so? No. I said: Why would you ask me about the universe when the topic is DNA? You are speaking of DNA as if it was the first thing to ever be created, but it's not. Many things preceed it. So either it was all "created" by some supernatural force, or, we would have to believe that this supernatural force lets somethings occur naturally, in fact, lets everything occur naturally, but feels the need to make DNA supernaturally. And only that. Seems crazy... I don't believe my molecules are having this discussion anymore than I feel my blood is. The molecules that construct my brain evolved in a way that gave rise to consciousness, but that's a whole other topic.My mind is a by-product of molecules arranged in a specific way from years of evolution.We also know that evolution is the only method that has given rise to intelligence, or rather a thinking mind, able to create.So if god is the creator than, by all observable evidence we have (note this is the same argument that you are using for DNA), then gods mind must be the by-product of evolution as well. No other evidence for the rise of thinking minds exist to support any other hypothesis.- Oni

---

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.