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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 131 of 334 (510829)
06-03-2009 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 9:13 PM


Burden of Proof
0% OBSERVATION that the laws of nature can [produce coded information].
We have the observational evidence of DNA encoding information without violation of any known law of nature. It merely obeys the rules of chemistry. Until such time as you show that code can't be without violating something other then your command from on high the onus is on you, not those who look at what is actually on the plate and don't concoct fairies from ignorance and wishes.

It's long past time for you to introduce a reason rather then a speculation as to why what we see isn't what is.

Edited by lyx2no, : I like the word ignorance better then unknowns. More of a ring to it. See ya' tomorrow W.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 9:13 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 10:25 PM lyx2no has responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 134 of 334 (510832)
06-03-2009 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 10:25 PM


Re: Burden of Proof
The *function* of the DNA molecule certainly does obey the laws of nature.
So you've said. What laws?

Opps! I rushed that. So someone else other then you said. What laws?

AbE: I miss read that, skip the stuff in blue.

If it violates no laws what are you running with. Why would you introduce an unnecessary layer at all. You're watching a ball rolling down a slope and speculating that it must have a motor of some kind hidden inside of it. Why? Because Yackey says so? What's wrong with the answer "Balls roll down hills."?

Do you think you could answer the question with something other then Yackey not saying anything meaning full?

Yockey writes:

“The reason that there are principles of biology that cannot be derived from the laws of physics and chemistry lies simply in the fact that the genetic information content of the genome for constructing even the simplest organisms is much larger than the information content of these laws. The existence of a genome and the genetic code divides living organisms from nonliving matter. There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.

Yackey's not really saying anything here that is not rather obviously begging the question. DNA acts exactly as he says nothing in nature does. DNA is in nature until shown otherwise. Show otherwise already.

Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.

Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.

Edited by lyx2no, : I just like editing.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 10:25 PM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 150 of 334 (510944)
06-04-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by WordBeLogos
06-04-2009 7:39 PM


Re: Burden of Proof
The question that we can’t answer, is where the code came from in the first place.
The code is merely a consequence of the three dimensional shape of the electromagnetic fields of the combination of the bases. This one, this one and this one will bind to that amino acid; that one, that one and that one will bind to this amino acid. It is no more or less a code then a child's geometric sorting toy.

Click to enlarge

The code is not at all amazing: square pegs fit in square holes. What is amazing is that some combinations have the capacity to perpetuate themselves. Some faster then the local environment can destroy them. Once that happens the race towards life is on.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-04-2009 7:39 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-05-2009 8:34 PM lyx2no has responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 176 of 334 (511054)
06-05-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by WordBeLogos
06-05-2009 8:34 PM


Re: Burden of Proof
And what accounts for the square holes being arranged in the precise order which spells out the complete assemblage instructions to build a space shuttle? Chance?
Space shuttle parts have no affinity for each other. That's why engineers are required, else we would have to rely on chance. I'd like to believe that you are not of the impression that space shuttle parts are placed into some kind of form and shaken until they fall into the correct position but I can't be sure. The problem is is that you've shown such a poor ability to recognize the disparities between the subject and the analogy that I am unable to tell how far you intended the analogy to reach. Do you not know that atoms and molecules interact with each other of their own accord? That some arrangements are more stable then others? That other interaction of some molecules with their surroundings can produce copies of the molecule? And a dozen other questions that play into answering the questions that you mistakenly believe can't be answered?

This is just a version of Message 155 where you try to use a pebbles spelling words on the beach analogy. That analogy was so poor I wasn't sure that you hadn't seen the light while I was away and were now trying to form and analogy for your new understanding. Try this on: An oxygen atom will combine with two hydrogen atoms. Not three, four or five; two. When it does so, the hydrogen atoms will form an angle of 104.45°. Not 45°, 120° or 256°; 104.45°. Is this by chance?

No. They form this pattern for the same reason that DNA behaves the way it does: to occupy the lowest local energy state. In a water molecule the electrostatic interaction, the dispersion and repulsion forces, of the three atoms balances at that angle. The RNA codon AGC will bind with serine because combined they can occupy a lower energy state then they can separately. That is the source of your "code".

The energy states of your pebbles are the same whether scattered randomly or spelling out words. As there is no way to define a preferred state, and there are many more random states then there are spelling states, the pebbles are much more likely to not form Bible verses.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-05-2009 8:34 PM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 214 of 334 (511454)
06-09-2009 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by WordBeLogos
06-09-2009 2:47 PM


Yes, We Can.
The question that we can’t answer, is where the code came from in the first place.
It is merely a chemical reaction that protolife took advantage of. It's been answered.

AbE:

which uses a system of symbols
I wear a red carnation as a signal to my accomplice that we're being observed; white indicates that we can speak freely. They are symbols. Neither the red nor the white carnation actually cause the event signaled. Codons causes the binding of an amino acid. It doesn't require an intelligent interpreter.

Edited by lyx2no, : Later post.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 2:47 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 10:34 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 236 of 334 (512038)
06-13-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by WordBeLogos
06-13-2009 5:31 PM


Oh! Now I See
Your post
Why didn't you just say that from the begging? Oh! That's right you did. Then you said it in your second post. Then in your third post. Then I think you might have hinted at it in your fourth post; nope! you said it specifically. Then in your fifth post you said that too. Let me see; what did you say in your sixth post, hummm, that.

It's not that we didn't understand. We disagree. You've added nothing new in 235 posts even though you've been supplied with 117 new arguments against what someone you keep repeating says.

I hope this catches you up.

Edited by lyx2no, : Missed a verb.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 5:31 PM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 240 of 334 (512044)
06-13-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by WordBeLogos
06-13-2009 5:31 PM


I'm Having a Ball
Slope:  Hi, I'm a plain that is not perpendicular to my local gravity field.

Ball: Hello, Slope, I'm within a few percent of a sphere.

Slope: Well, that's something. Tell me a bit more about yourself;
could be together we can induce a conversion of some of your
potential energy into kinetic energy.

Ball: I have mass and radius, my density is several hundred times
greater then air; been working out; and I'm rather proud of
this little fact: a modicum of surface texture and cohesion.

Slope: Yes, surface texture, I adore surface texture. Mine's about
twice yours. That kinetic energy I mentioned earlier, we can
fritter some of it away as heat. I've always liked doing
that. You?

Ball: Nothing better. I've got to ask, just a round-about, how steep
is your grade Ź· five, ten percent. It's just that I used that
information to determine how fast I'm going to roll.

Sphere: Don't you also have to take your mass distribution into
account as well. I read something about angular momentum, but
as a plain I've little practical experience. I'd bet you're
just the man to ask. I'll enjoy seeing it in practice.

Ball: Here we go then.

And the ball roles down hill. Seems we have encoders/decoders and an agreed upon code for an action. Must be evidence of God.

Edited by Admin, : Reduce message width.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 5:31 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 1:01 AM lyx2no has responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 269 of 334 (512114)
06-14-2009 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by WordBeLogos
06-14-2009 1:01 AM


Re: I'm Having a Ball
Hi pmarshall

And welcome to EvC

pmarshall writes:

There is no specific mapping of letters of alphabet A onto alphabet B.


Click to enlarge
Now that depends on the shape of the hill, doesn't it? And before you miss the point and object that this is a man made series of not hills, on a real hill a ball rolled from point A will end up at point ᗍ ,and point B will roll to point ᗾ.

Edited by lyx2no, : ?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 1:01 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 271 of 334 (512121)
06-14-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Percy
06-14-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Some Correct Information about Information
Discussion is pointless until Word begins accepting the feedback and discussing the issues in terms that make sense.
That goes twice for pmarshall. He has even less of a tendency to respond to feedback. It's like yelling at Anderson Cooper on tv.

Edited by lyx2no, : Clarity


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Percy, posted 06-14-2009 9:26 AM Percy has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 282 of 334 (512296)
06-16-2009 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by WordBeLogos
06-16-2009 2:10 AM


U Pratt
How is that a code??? Where’s the encoder and decoder and the table of symbols?
  • The hill is the encoder: it writes the path of the ball.
  • The ball is the decoder: it reads the shape of the hill.
  • The USGS lists the symbols.


Click to enlarge

That’s the criteria.
How do you meet the criteria? The shape of the codon (hill) determines the placement (path) of the amino acid (ball).

No offense, but please, enough nonsense.
Please, that's rich. So rich it could play Augusta where little, white decoders map 18 verdant, encoded routes from point A to point B.

Edited by lyx2no, : Be slightly less subtle.

Edited by lyx2no, : Parallelism.

Edited by lyx2no, : More parallelism.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-16-2009 2:10 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 294 of 334 (512390)
06-17-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by WordBeLogos
06-17-2009 1:14 AM


Then You Fail
Code is defined as communication between an encoder a "writer or speaker" and a decoder a "reader or listener" using agreed upon symbols.

Then you fail:
  • The "writer" is the shape of the codon or the shape of the hill.
  • The "reader" is how an amino acid orients itself to a shape just as a ball follows a slope.
  • There are no symbols in either case. The carnation of my Message 214 is a symbol: the shape of these objects aren't symbols.

In your example of a ball rolling down hill, there is no set of comunicated symbols. The USGS symbols are *ONLY* used by humans to describe the ball. And not used *BY* any ball. This is totally different from DNA , the base pairs are used *BY* the DNA as symbols. GGG = Glycine. UUU = Phenylalanine.
The symbols GGG and UUU are *ONLY* used by humans to describe the codon. Ribosomes facilitate the fitting of a square peg into a square hole. They don't read a codon and then construct a protein in some other part of the cell base upon that information. The shapes of codons position amino acids just as the shapes of hills position balls (or better: rivers).

And why are you talking about base pairs? (It's because you don't actually understand what you're talking about so as you toss words about you fail to recognize when you're producing rubbish. I've tried subtle before, and it doesn't work.)

DNA carries out the rules of the genetic code in addition to obeying the laws of physics. The ball rolling down the hill has no such code and simply obeys the laws of physics.
DNA carries out the rules of the genetic code *BY* obeying the laws of physics.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-17-2009 1:14 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

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