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Author Topic:   why did an evolved life-form invent "god"?
tomwillrep
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 49 (43608)
06-22-2003 10:14 AM


why did an evolved life-form that came from nothing, and evolved over time evolve into its current state "invent" a god - and make records of our relationship with god - thousands of years before we "revelaed" how we were created by evolution, especially at a time when christianity was a huge thing in england?
also - if we evolved around the area of africa why are there no rcords there, from the african people of evolution.
also why do many africans believe in some "god" creating the world (whether they are muslim or christian they believe in a "god")?
thanks

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John
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (43610)
06-22-2003 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 10:14 AM


quote:
why did an evolved life-form that came from nothing, and evolved over time evolve into its current state "invent" a god - and make records of our relationship with god
Why do children make up invisible playmates?
quote:
- thousands of years before we "revelaed" how we were created by evolution
hmmm... because we didn't have a better idea thousands of years ago. History is full of bad ideas.
quote:
especially at a time when christianity was a huge thing in england?
Are you sure you have your chronology right? Christianity itself has only been around 2000 years, and didn't make it to England until some hundreds of years later. People had invented Gods long before that time.
quote:
also - if we evolved around the area of africa why are there no rcords there, from the african people of evolution.
Why would there be records? We didn't start recording things until 30,000 years ago or so-- if you count cave paintings as records. Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old. Our species has been homo sapien for, perhaps, a couple of hundred thousand years.
------------------
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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tomwillrep
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 49 (43613)
06-22-2003 11:11 AM


"thousands of years before we "revelaed" how we were created by evolution"
hmmm... because we didn't have a better idea thousands of years ago. History is full of bad ideas.
--- why did we not "know" before this time though? if homo sapiens are an age old species why do we have no record of the first homo sapien (we have records of the first human being adam), we have no idea until darwin (and other people) decided that we came from evolution.
darwin was christian - my view is that he was protesting against ahving christianity "drummed" into him that he rebelled and came up with this new theory.
quote:
"especially at a time when christianity was a huge thing in england?"
Are you sure you have your chronology right? Christianity itself has only been around 2000 years, and didn't make it to England until some hundreds of years later. People had invented Gods long before that time.
-- yes christianity has been around a long time - i was referrring (if you understood the context of my post) that the theory of evolution came at a time when christianity was "in charge" of britain- at a time when people were likely to rebel and want to find ways to argue against something that they did not like - so evolution was invented?!
quote:
"also - if we evolved around the area of africa why are there no rcords there, from the african people of evolution."
Why would there be records? We didn't start recording things until 30,000 years ago or so-- if you count cave paintings as records. Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old. Our species has been homo sapien for, perhaps, a couple of hundred thousand years.
--- the bible is a recording of events from the beginning of the earth - IF we evolved we would have some recording, some note or some form of noteable points that would suggest how we came to be.
cave paintings have not proven anything about evolution - i recently saw in the newspaper cavepaintings of giraffes - all looked the same but somehow it "proved" evolution -
also, many "artists" have their own p

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 49 (43626)
06-22-2003 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 11:11 AM


quote:
why did we not "know" before this time though?
Why did we not know about electromagnetism until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about radiation until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about super conductors until this century? Why did we not know about galaxies until this century?
Your question really doesn't make sense. Why SHOULD we have known?
quote:
if homo sapiens are an age old species why do we have no record of the first homo sapien
I explained this. The first of our species were around long before anyone invented writing. You can't leave a written record if you can't write.
quote:
(we have records of the first human being adam)
No we don't. We have a book that claims to be a record of the first human. Pick a religion and you'll find some such book claiming this or that person was the first human. It isn't proof. It is myth.
quote:
we have no idea until darwin (and other people) decided that we came from evolution.
Darwin didn't invent the idea of evolution. It had been around for awhile when he hit the stage. What Darwin did was formulate a workable mechanism for evolution.
quote:
darwin was christian - my view is that he was protesting against ahving christianity "drummed" into him that he rebelled and came up with this new theory.
Got any evidence? Or is this just salve for your brain?
quote:
--- the bible is a recording of events from the beginning of the earth
Sorry, bud, no it isn't. It claims to be recording from the beginning, but the Earth is far older than 6 thousand years.
quote:
IF we evolved we would have some recording, some note or some form of noteable points that would suggest how we came to be.
What are you missing? No one could write until 150,000 years plus after our species first showed up on the planet. How could anyone have recorded the process of our evolution? This would have required, even, than our pre-human ancestors kept written records. It just didn't happen that way.
------------------
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tomwillrep
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 49 (43629)
06-22-2003 1:03 PM


"why did we not "know" before this time though?"
Why did we not know about electromagnetism until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about radiation until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about super conductors until this century? Why did we not know about galaxies until this century?
Your question really doesn't make sense. Why SHOULD we have known?
for someone who seems to understand some in depth information adn calculations of evolution you don't seem able to understand a simple question- we should ahve known where we came from - the story of creation has been aorund the longest out of all ideas/views/theories- those people "KNEW" where they came from for thousands of years - yet if you follow evolution - no one knows where or how - we have assumptions and suggestions "probably," being a favourite word - of where we came from - a view that changes constantly and does not stay consistent - if we came from apes - why were we not aware until the last few centuries?
you say why did we not know about electro magnetism until just recently - to me that is because the earth is still relatively young (young compared to evolutionists views of millions of years old) and so those things were only recently found out with developments in technology - technology that can be used by everyone (i can use a telescope to see stars and planets - i cannot however underatke freely, without lots and lots of evolutionary based training, conduct experiments or make calculations to see how old the world is?!)
"if homo sapiens are an age old species why do we have no record of the first homo sapien"
I explained this. The first of our species were around long before anyone invented writing. You can't leave a written record if you can't write.
the stories in the bible were passed down by word of mouth - a tradition used by many religions, many countries, etc etc - why have we therefore not heard any of these stories in order to wirte them down - why did we evolve voice boxes if not to use them?
"(we have records of the first human being adam)"
No we don't. We have a book that claims to be a record of the first human. Pick a religion and you'll find some such book claiming this or that person was the first human. It isn't proof. It is myth.
----a myth is a made up story - a legend is a story that has truth to it - therefore it is more a legend than a myth - i would request you to name other religious texts that talk about the first human - the ones i am aware of - the bible, torah and koran(spelling) all talk about adam as the first human on earth - most other religions don't have a first human, they just start when their religion started - years after the jewish recordings!
"we have no idea until darwin (and other people) decided that we came from evolution."
Darwin didn't invent the idea of evolution. It had been around for awhile when he hit the stage. What Darwin did was formulate a workable mechanism for evolution
-- it came around a long time after ALL religions - why is it that the "truth" of the world only came around thousands of years after we "invented" god and religion-also why is it that only the developed countries - the ones that are further away from the origins of evolution-believe in evolution yet the countries near to where humans "originated" are not aware and do not know- around all areas associated with religious beliefs of any kind - there are many people who believe in the religion-yet if we came from africa then why do very few/if any african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes-not actually know of this ancestoral past?
"the bible is a recording of events from the beginning of the earth"
Sorry, bud, no it isn't. It claims to be recording from the beginning, but the Earth is far older than 6 thousand years.
im sorry - evolution is a "claim" - it is a theory - a claim-an idea- historically the bible can be traced backs - all places mentioned have existed, the egyptians and the pharoahs existed, the jewish and christian slavery existed, the disciples, a guy called jesus, all existed - this can be traced by looking at who the disciples taught, who then taught others, who then taught others, which can be traced - however, where are the traces of evolutionary past? surely when we learnt to write we would have THEN recorded our evolutionary past - not another few thousand years after?

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 49 (43642)
06-22-2003 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 1:03 PM


quote:
we should ahve known where we came from
Why? Without assuming the Bible to be true, why?
quote:
the story of creation has been aorund the longest out of all ideas/views/theories
You know this how? Do you know what the first idea was some hundred thousand or million years ago? Do you even know WHEN the first idea was?
quote:
those people "KNEW" where they came from for thousands of years
Yes, many cultures and peoples have 'known' where they came from. The various stories are not compatible and none have evidence.
quote:
yet if you follow evolution - no one knows where or how
Look, you are basically arguing that we should have known about evoultion from the git-go. Since we didn't know about it then, it isn't true. I really can't take this argument seriously. We didn't know about Pluto until 1930, does this make it 'untrue' now?
quote:
you say why did we not know about electro magnetism until just recently - to me that is because the earth is still relatively young (young compared to evolutionists views of millions of years old) and so those things were only recently found out with developments in technology
Of course it has to do with technological advance!!! What does that have to do with the age of the Earth? And shouldn't we have 'just known' about electromagnetism as we should have 'just known' about evolution?
quote:
technology that can be used by everyone (i can use a telescope to see stars and planets - i cannot however underatke freely, without lots and lots of evolutionary based training, conduct experiments or make calculations to see how old the world is?!)
Not true. The technology is available, though it can be expensive, but you can't blame that on evolution. But for starters, watch a river flow and measure the rate at which it cuts through rock. Then extrapolate to find out how long it would have taken to cut its present channel. The math isn't teribly complicated and the equiment is cheap. Nor do you need 'evolutionary' training to calculate the age of the Earth. All you need is geology.
quote:
the stories in the bible were passed down by word of mouth - a tradition used by many religions, many countries, etc etc - why have we therefore not heard any of these stories in order to wirte them down - why did we evolve voice boxes if not to use them?
What you are talking about is the passing of oral history over hundreds, not hundreds of thousands of years. I am sure that virtually all of our oldest records started as oral history. But passing such along for hundreds of thousands of years AND through the transition of our species from a previous one that may or may not have even been able to speak, is a different thing from passing along folk tales for 500 years.
quote:
a myth is a made up story - a legend is a story that has truth to it - therefore it is more a legend than a myth
If you wish to insist on this definition of 'legend' and then insist that the Bible qualifies, please provide evidence for this grain of truth in the creation myth.
quote:
i would request you to name other religious texts that talk about the first human - the ones i am aware of - the bible, torah and koran(spelling) all talk about adam as the first human on earth
That is because they are all based in the same tradition.
Encyclopedia Mythica
Pick a myth and read through. Here are some samples.
Africa:Abassi-- by Dr Anthony E. Smith
The creator god of the Efik (Nigeria), Abassi was instructed by his wife, Atai, to allow a human couple to settle on the Earth, but forbade them to procreate or work, for fear that they might excel Abassi in wisdom. For some time the humans observed this rule, but eventually they began to work and have children, for which Atai slew the man and his wife, and caused strife and discord between their children.
We see the first human couple on Earth.
or a Samoan creation tale...
samoa.co.uk
Aztec...
Ms Hos-McGrane's Class Web : Amsterdam, Netherlands
And a whole slew...
High Speed Internet | Business Phone | Syracuse, Utica, Oneida, Rome
... like this one:
Boshongo
(Bantu tribe of Central Africa) In the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomachache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals: the leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally, some men, one of whom, Yoko Lima was white like Bumba.
or...
Apache
In the beginning nothing existed -- no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, Creator, the One Who Lives Above. As if waking from a long nap, he rubbed his eyes and face with both hands.
When he looked into the endless darkness, light appeared above. He looked down and it became a sea of light. To the east, he created yellow streaks of dawn. To the west, tints of many colors appeared everywhere. There were also clouds of different colors.
Creator wiped his sweating face and rubbed his hands together, thrusting them downward. Behold! A shining cloud upon which sat a little girl. "Stand up and tell me where are you going," said Creator. But she did not reply. He rubbed his eyes again and offered his right hand to the Girl-Without-Parents.
You get the idea.
quote:
it came around a long time after ALL religions - why is it that the "truth" of the world only came around thousands of years after we "invented" god and religion
What does time have to do with being correct? Why do you think people in the past are more likely to have things right when, in fact, when that people in the past are more likely to be wrong about a lot of things-- like medicine, hygiene, various forms of technology.
quote:
yet if we came from africa then why do very few/if any african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes-not actually know of this ancestoral past?
This is racist and idiotic. Sorry. ALL of us are descended from the same frighteningly small bunch of people in Africa. We are all equally related to other primates. Those who stayed in Africa, remained adapted to the climate. That's all. Those who left, adapted to other climates.
quote:
im sorry - evolution is a "claim" - it is a theory - a claim-an idea-
I said nothing about evolution here. I said the Earth is older than 6k.
quote:
historically the bible can be traced backs
No. Sorry. It can't be 'traced back.' Precious little in the Bible has any evidence to support it. Names and places are mentioned, but frequently scrambled and out of sync with other evidence. But there are threads for this topic.
quote:
surely when we learnt to write we would have THEN recorded our evolutionary past - not another few thousand years after?
There you go again. We wouldn't have written it down once we learned to write because it had all happened HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST and most of it PRIOR TO OUR HAVING THE ABILITY to speak.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 49 (43660)
06-22-2003 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by John
06-22-2003 10:59 AM


'Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old'
with this part i agree,6000 years.
get what i'm saying?

This message is a reply to:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 49 (43667)
06-22-2003 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
06-22-2003 5:37 PM


quote:
'Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old'
with this part i agree,6000 years.
get what i'm saying?

And that first language wasn't Hebrew. Did I mention that part? Get what I'm saying?
------------------
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 9 of 49 (43681)
06-22-2003 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 1:03 PM


past
Tom,
Imagine that writing hasn't been invented yet....now, tell me who your great great great grandparents were. All 16 of them, their names and the names of all their children and all their children's children. Who were their parents (32 of them) and their parents (64), etc. Remember, writing hasn't been invented yet, no birth records or family letters, or newspapers etc. I have been working on my family history for several years and even with birth, marriage, death records, immigration records and all other kinds of WRITTEN records, I am having difficulty getting past my 2x great grandparents and I don't even have names for most of them. I only have 8 2x great grandparents and I have names for TWO of them.
We are talking 150 year time span and written and recorded information. Now you explain how 6000 years ago humans were suppose to know who their ancestors were 6000 years before that, or 20,000 years, or 50,000 years.
It's not like one day we had ape like ancestors and the next "POOF" the children born were all fully modern humans with a fully modern-like language, and fully capable of remembering and passing on information on each and every generation.
I could sit here right now and write a genealogy for myself, using facts as far back as I can remember and then "making up" the rest to fit with my world view that I am the direct descendant of the first man "George" and as such am blessed by "George's" creator. Two thousand years from now when someone reads this, does it make it all true, considering that some of it can be historically verified?
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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tomwillrep
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 49 (43683)
06-22-2003 8:54 PM


old families used to be "extended families" therefore - grandparents and great-grandparents lived with their great-grandchildren and grandchildren and children etc etc
then there is the tales past down - i hear "in the war i did.....when i was young i did......
so surely - at some point some adapted life form must have grunted out a sentence that was passed down along the lines of "we came from apes" or "we are related to those creatures"
"yet if we came from africa then why do very few/if any african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes-not actually know of this ancestoral past?"
This is racist and idiotic. Sorry. ALL of us are descended from the same frighteningly small bunch of people in Africa. We are all equally related to other primates. Those who stayed in Africa, remained adapted to the climate. That's all. Those who left, adapted to other climates.
where is my racist comment - i have read, been told and heard and saw "evidence" that the first homo sapiens have originated in the area close to africa- i was not making any comment in any racist way - i find your remark quite insulting to suggest that i'm racist?! -
anyway back to the argument-the first homo sapiens have originated in the area close to africa (by evolutionary theory)- therefore people in that area would surely believe in the way they came to be - yet very few people do - we can go to countries that are "not-so-developed" anywhere in the world and very little of these countries, if any will "know" of evolution - why is this? why just the developed countries that are turning away from a creationist belief?

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 11 of 49 (43689)
06-22-2003 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 8:54 PM


old families used to be "extended families" therefore - grandparents and great-grandparents lived with their great-grandchildren and grandchildren and children etc etc
then there is the tales past down - i hear "in the war i did.....when i was young i did......
This almost proves my point in message 9. I grew up in the same area as my parents, grandparents, great grandparents...so how come even then my grandparents did not have the information on THEIR grandparents: where they came from, who they were, what they did, etc? Oral stories get changed over time, ever play the game of telephone? Let's say "Bob" shot off his toes to get out of going into combat...he is embarrassed by this so tells his kids that it happened as an accident...the grandkids just hear that Bob was in the war and got his toes shot off...a couple of generations later the story is that Bob got his toes shot off in battle with the enemy...a few generations later the story is now that Bob is a great war hero. Things like this happen now, in an age of written, spoken, recorded history!
so surely - at some point some adapted life form must have grunted out a sentence that was passed down along the lines of "we came from apes" or "we are related to those creatures"
I think that the probable first "grunted" words meant things more like "good to eat", "lion over there", "RUN, HIDE", "MINE". Its was probably quite some time before sounds came to mean abstract thoughts, first priority was survival and things involving that concept were undoubtably what first "language" was for.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 49 (43690)
06-22-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 8:54 PM


quote:
old families used to be "extended families" therefore - grandparents and great-grandparents lived with their great-grandchildren and grandchildren and children etc etc
Doesn't matter. Asgara explained the problem quite well in post #9. We are talking about 10,000 generations of humans plus at least as many generations of pre-human ancestors, not five or six.
quote:
then there is the tales past down - i hear "in the war i did.....when i was young i did......
So did I. When was the last time you heard a story, passed down only via word of mouth, about an event that happened 200 years ago? A thousand years? Ten thousand?
quote:
so surely - at some point some adapted life form must have grunted out a sentence that was passed down along the lines of "we came from apes" or "we are related to those creatures"
Why? Look, from the time we split with other apes until we first had the ability to speak thousands of generations had passed. Why would anyone know?
quote:
where is my racist comment
Right here.
african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes
quote:
i have read, been told and heard and saw "evidence" that the first homo sapiens have originated in the area close to africa
Yes. It does not follow that modern Africans are closer to apes than modern any-other-human.
quote:
i was not making any comment in any racist way
The same line has been used to defend racist ideas since about three minutes after the idea of evolution was proposed.
quote:
therefore people in that area would surely believe in the way they came to be
The land has nothing to do with it. The people living there are no closer to any pre-human ancestors than anyone else.
It is as if you believe this scenario happened within a few hundred years. It didn't. Thousands and thousands of years passed. Think of it this way. Humans have been keeping written records for 6000 years or so. Yet how much of that information do we actually have? Next to nothing. Most of it has been lost. Ask any archaeologist. Yet you expect information to be preserved in virtually pristine condition for hundreds of thousands of years without a means to record the information? We can't keep track of most of that information with writing!
------------------
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This message is a reply to:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 13 of 49 (43858)
06-23-2003 10:57 PM


Planning on coming back Tom?
hhmm, I know it's only been 24 hours or so, but just wondering if you plan on coming back and replying to any of the answers posted here for you.
Hit and run posters are no fun to talk to. They don't seem to appreciate the time and effort some of the members here put into their answers.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13013
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 49 (43903)
06-24-2003 9:38 AM


Guideline Reminder
I have two issues with the charges of possible racism:
  1. The racism isn't apparent to me.
  2. The charges of racism are inconsistent with the Forum Guidelines. In my opinion racism must be opposed in the strongest manner, but as it is such a serious charge the evidence for it must be very strong. Please be cautious.
------------------
--Percy
   EvC Forum Administrator

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 15 of 49 (43934)
06-24-2003 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 8:54 PM


I don't see any clear racism in the "closest to apes" comment.
What I do see is a misunderstanding.
At some point in time 60 to 100 kYr BP a very small group of humans started the migration out of Africa. By that time we had all be long, long, long split from any other ancestors. Certainly for 100 Kyrs.
So those who stayed and those who left were all the same "distance" from any ancestors.
Since some of us left those who stayed behind have continued to change and so have the travelers. Today the greatest range of genetic diversity is in populations in Africa. I'd be inclined to say they are the most genetically advanced if I had to pick any group. The rest of us are just a side branch.

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