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Author Topic:   Bishop Bell's Behemoth, Or The Paleontological Prelate
AnswersInGenitals
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Member Rating: 5.7


Message 16 of 23 (397848)
04-27-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-25-2007 9:51 PM


Perhaps we could better guess the 'what' if we know a little more about the 'why', i. e., what is the rest of the context of this engraving? What does the inscription say? What is known about Bell's family and/or professional icons? What were the typical funerary adornments at this place and time? Maybe this is just a very poorly executed rendition of a fairly common and obvious graphic.

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 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 8:44 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded
 Message 19 by anastasia, posted 04-28-2007 11:09 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 17 of 23 (397895)
04-28-2007 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by AnswersInGenitals
04-27-2007 11:49 PM


My information about Bell is scanty; I think the only things I know that I haven't mentioned are that his first name was Richard and that he took over as Bishop in 1477, before which he was prior of Finchale.

I can tell you what the inscription says --- in Latin.

I have small Latin and less Greek, so I'm not sure what all of it means.

quote:
In the middle of the choir is a monument to Bishop Bell. On a blue slab under a triple canopy, the centre pediment of which has I.H.S., and its point the Deity and Christ, is a brass figure of a bishop in pontificalibus, mitre and gloves; his right hand holds on his breast an open book inscribed—

Hec mea
Spes in sinu meo

His left hand, over which hangs the maniple, has a rich crosier. On a semi-circular scroll over his head—

Credo qd redemptor meus vivit et novissio die de terra surrectur
su et in Carne mea videbo deu salvatore meu.

Under his feet—

Hac marmor fossa Bell presulis en tenet ossa
Duresme dudu prior his post pontificatu
Gessit atq' renuit primum super omia querit
Dispiciens mudu poscendo pramia fratru

On the ledge round the slab—

Hic jacet Reverendus Pater Ricardus Bell quondam Episcopus Karleolensis qui ab hac luce migravit videlicet vicesimo Quarto die ... Anno Domini.... Et omnium fidelium defunctorum. per misericordiam dei requiescant in perpetua pace. Amen.


Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Coragyps
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From: Snyder, Texas, USA
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Message 18 of 23 (397923)
04-28-2007 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2007 8:44 AM


To my scant Latin those look like pretty standard funeral/memorial language: "Credo qd redemptor meus vivit et novissio die de terra surrectur" is sort of "I believe that my redeemer lives and {that I will ???}" No monstrous critter thay I can tell, anyway.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4294 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 19 of 23 (397924)
04-28-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by AnswersInGenitals
04-27-2007 11:49 PM


AIG writes:

What were the typical funerary adornments at this place and time? Maybe this is just a very poorly executed rendition of a fairly common and obvious graphic.

I don't know about funerary adornment of the time, but take a look at this list of some illustrations found elsewhere in Carlisle Cathedral! One would have to make a case for skeletal remains being found for all of these other 'animals'. In context of the whole, this particular 'dinosaur' certainly does lose its impact.

Description of the Interior of Carlisle Cathedral writes:

The hinged seats, known as misereres or misericordes, were constructed to keep the monks from falling asleep while at prayers. The carvings beneath these seats are of different designs, generally grotesque.

The following is a list of the subjects found carved thereon:—­

NORTH SIDE

A dragon swallowing a man.
Bird and young.
Dragon and lions.
Three dragons, one with a human face.
Winged figure with a tabour.
Dragon devouring a bird.
Coronation of the Virgin.
Three griffins.
Pelican in its act of piety.
Dragon and lion fighting.
Griffin and two young ones.
Two dragons joined together.
Two storks eating out of a sack.
Figure with wings, claws, and human face.
Angelic musician.
Two eagles.
Double-headed eagle.
Fox and goose.
Two dragon bodies with a human head.
Angel playing an instrument.
A man with two eagles plucking his beard.
Dragon, and two lions with human faces.

SOUTH SIDE

Two angels.
Dragon.
Bird and beast fighting.
Human head on two animal bodies.
Winged dragon.
Winged serpent.
Two beasts with one head.
Two men fighting.
Griffin with human head.
Dragon and foliage.
Two eagles holding the head of a beast.
Fox and goose.
Human figure with four wings.
Man and dragon fighting.
Angel bearing a shield.
Angel and dragons.
Pelican in its act of piety.
Boar killing a man.
Man holding two dragons.
Dragon killing a beast.
Mermaid.
Dragon and lion in combat.

AIG writes:

What does the inscription say?

Read horizontally 'Hec spes mea in sinu meo'...is a verse from Job 19:27.

'Credo qd [sic] redemptor meus vivit'...part of the service for the Burial of the Dead, later a hymn by Robert Parsons and also put to music in an English version by J.F. Handel.

Of the other two inscriptions, one is the name, dates, etc, of the deceased with a simple requiescat.

The other I can not make out so well, but basically tells us that the tomb holds the bones of Bell, and possibly contains some biographical info about his tenure as Bishop?

Anyway, no clues there in the inscription.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:43 AM anastasia has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 20 of 23 (397931)
04-28-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by anastasia
04-28-2007 11:09 AM


I don't know about funerary adornment of the time, but take a look at this list of some illustrations found elsewhere in Carlisle Cathedral! One would have to make a case for skeletal remains being found for all of these other 'animals'. In context of the whole, this particular 'dinosaur' certainly does lose its impact.

But this one looks like a dinosaur.

Well ... more like a dinosaur than anything else.

Dragon and lion in combat.

Well that's a wussy dragon.

Real dragons throttle elephants, St Isidore of Seville says so.


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 Message 21 by anastasia, posted 04-28-2007 11:53 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4294 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 21 of 23 (397932)
04-28-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2007 11:43 AM


DrA writes:

Well that's a wussy dragon.

Hey, Dr A!

The dragon and lion mentioned in the list are not the pictures on the tomb. They are other carvings found on benches.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:43 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:59 AM anastasia has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 22 of 23 (397935)
04-28-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by anastasia
04-28-2007 11:53 AM


I know, you said, they're on misericordes.

That doesn't change the fact that a dragon fighting a mere lion is a lightweight lizard, a wimpish wyrm, and a feeble firedrake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by anastasia, posted 04-28-2007 11:53 AM anastasia has responded

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 Message 23 by anastasia, posted 04-28-2007 12:14 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4294 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 23 of 23 (397938)
04-28-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2007 11:59 AM


I will go out on a limb and give you my opinion for your perusal and comments. :)

The important thing about bestiary animals is often their symbolism. If you look at the misericordiae carvings, many of them have obvious symbolism...the Pelican for instance.

It stands to reason IMO that the rest of the engravings are symbolic as well, even if the references are lost. At least it would be an interesting research project.

So, I still go with 'dragon' for Bell's Tomb, because I am speculating that the animal opposite is a mongoose, or ichneumon. I have nothing to base this on save the fact that the mongoose is the 'nemesis of the dragon' regarded by many cultures as a symbol of Good versus Evil, and alternately seen with a snake, serpent, or dragon which it attacks by the throat. I would put it on a tomb!

Remember the projections sidelined asked about? Wings! What else would be missing from a dragon?

However your OP still stands. Why would this particular dragon look so much like a dino?

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:59 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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