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Author Topic:   Most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 124 of 189 (409771)
07-11-2007 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by IamJoseph
07-11-2007 7:02 AM


Re: Introductory Virology
IamJoseph writes:
So apes become human because of a viral indent in its dna - a unique event?
How you can read that into PeterMc's very clear description is beyond me. You have an uncanny ability to distort other people's words.
Apes had no immune system
If that is true then you don't have an immune system either, because you are an ape yourself. I don't mean this as an insult, it's simple taxonomy.
There goes your Ape prevailing this virus premise!
You mean your premise I think? It was you who brought this up just now, remember?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 7:02 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 7:28 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 126 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 7:35 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 127 of 189 (409776)
07-11-2007 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by IamJoseph
07-11-2007 7:28 AM


Re: Introductory Virology
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
What the virus itself did was "harmless" but the unique section of DNA was forever after copied, generation after generation. Eventually, as different populations in differing environments became distinct enough from each other to no longer be able to breed, they became two separate species, B and C. But the section of their DNA strand replaced with the retrovirus remained intact in both species. Much later, one animal in species C is infected by another virus, in another unique location on the DNA strand. Countless generations of copying later, the population becomes species D and E.
The population becomes D and E. So are you rejecting my interpretation, while accepting that apes and humans emrged by a unique event of a viral attack? And does this account for life - or speciation?
I am not accepting anything of the kind, because that is not what Peter says. Where in the above quote of Peter's message does he say that the speciation of humans and other apes from a common ancestor was caused by the viral intrusion? Nowhere. The viral intrusion and the speciation event - if you can call it an "event" - are completely unrelated. In the scenario described, the latter took place long after the former.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 7:28 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 8:10 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 128 of 189 (409779)
07-11-2007 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by IamJoseph
07-11-2007 7:35 AM


Immune systems are old
IamJoseph writes:
That apes would have no immune system is inferred not by me. The premise the ape was not able to dislodge or reject the virus, says that. It does not matter the virus was harmless - this is probably not the apes' doing in any case. It means that a harmful virus could also have been accepted by the ape - which makes the apes' survival very doubtful!
The fact that the ape was not able to get rid of the virus does not mean that it didn't have an immune system, it simply means that its immune system had no defense against that particular virus. Other viruses may have posed no problem.
You must realize that without an immune system as part of their basic biochemistry, the apes (including us) would not exist at all. An immune system is something that has evolved very, very long ago, long before mammals even existed, let alone apes.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 7:35 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 11:48 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 130 of 189 (409787)
07-11-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by IamJoseph
07-11-2007 8:10 AM


A Picture Might Help
IamJoseph writes:
What is said, is that speciation is tracked to the unique once only retro event decribed, and this is here:
quote:
I must try to simply explain the significance of the retroviral elements in the great apes for evolution. They prove that we share our inheritance for the simple reason that long ago, a one-off, random event occured in species A. That event replaced a section of the DNA strand in one animal. That section occurred in a distinct, unique location along the DNA strand.
You have misinterpreted what was said there, but I understand where that misunderstanding stems from now. It's the first sentence that led you astray: you interpreted that as saying that the retroviral intrusion was significant for the evolutionary development of the great apes, that it is presented as the cause of the speciation. But what was actually meant is that these retroviral intrusions offer a perfect way of proving common ancestry in general as an important element of evolution as a theory.
The conclusion:
quote:
There is now clear evidence of where the species branched from each other. All due to the unique “mark” one random viral infection on one cell on one animal made. This is why this research is so significant and so compelling as evidence
could have been clearer, it must be admitted. The "clear evidence" mentioned shows which species share a more recent common ancestor and which don't. Maybe the following illustration helps.
Species A acquires a retrovirus V1. After that, but not because of it, a speciation takes place: B and C are the result. Because B and C are descendants of A they both have the retrovirus V1. Species C then acquires retrovirus V2, another speciation occurs (again, no causal relationship), and D and E appear. Because they are descendants of C, they both have retrovirus V2. But because they are also descendants of A, they also have retrovirus V1. At the same point in time that D and E live, there is also a species F. Because F descended from A, via B, it has inherited retrovirus V1. But since it did not descend from A via C, it does not have retrovirus V2.
If the only evidence you have is DNA from specimens of D, E and F (because A, B and C are long extinct and their DNA is no longer directly available), then, looking at the molecular evidence (the presence of the retroviruses in the DNA), you conclude that D, E, and F are related, and that D and E are more closely related to one another than both of them are related to F. You can in fact draw the picture above from this evidence alone.
Hope this helps.
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by IamJoseph, posted 07-11-2007 8:10 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
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