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Author Topic:   Most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 66 of 189 (408842)
07-05-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by IamJoseph
07-05-2007 1:42 AM


Hi IamJoseph,
If you can offer criticisms that are actually about evolution instead of about evolutionists, we will attempt to respond.
This is a good question:
IamJoseph writes:
Q 1: Is Evolution a verified 'constant' - and is this a universal constant, or a localised one which effects only one planet?
As has already been noted by someone else in an earlier message, evolution isn't a "constant" in the way we normally use the term, like pi or e or Planck's constant or Avogadro's number. But the principles of evolution could be said to be constant in that they should be the same everywhere throughout the universe. That's because the processes of evolution obey physical laws, and physical laws are the same everywhere throughout the universe.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by IamJoseph, posted 07-05-2007 1:42 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by IamJoseph, posted 07-05-2007 10:14 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 70 of 189 (408852)
07-05-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by IamJoseph
07-05-2007 10:14 AM


Hi IamJoseph,
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding this message. Is English a 2nd language for you? If so, then I'll go back and read it a few more times and see if I can get it, but otherwise could you rephrase what you said a bit more clearly? I didn't understand what you were saying was contradictory in the 1st paragraph. A term I didn't understand in the 2nd paragraph were "host seed." But for the most part it was just an overall inability to tell what you were specifically objecting to.
Whatever it is you're taking issue with, I can only reiterate that the principles of evolution apply everywhere throughout the universe because known physical laws apply everywhere throughout the universe, and at the lowest levels evolution is just matter and energy following known physical laws. Descent with modification combined with natural selection is a very powerful process for adaptation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by IamJoseph, posted 07-05-2007 10:14 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 138 of 189 (409948)
07-12-2007 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rob
07-12-2007 10:04 AM


Re: Where's the beef?
Rob writes:
What we witness factually, is better explained by organisms adapting to a devolving environment, and in the process... losing genetic diversity.
So you're saying that we *have* made empirical observations of evolution, albeit in a devolving environment.
And what is particularly telling, is the problem of origin, in that, evolution (as an assumed universal trait; cosmologically or biologically) does not show itself in any form that is emperical.
And now you're saying that we've never made empirical observations of evolution, including biologically.
How should these contradictory statements be resolved? Are you trying to say that evolution is only possible in a devolving environment, whatever that is?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rob, posted 07-12-2007 10:04 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Rob, posted 07-13-2007 1:14 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 160 by Rob, posted 07-14-2007 11:02 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 148 of 189 (410075)
07-13-2007 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by IamJoseph
07-13-2007 5:24 AM


Re: Where's the beef?
IamJoseph writes:
quote:
I think it is clear to all that the concept of evolution was and is intended to explain the increase in order.
The species appear to be graduating within their species only, despite imprints of commonality of all life forms, including with vegetation. This means, animals will change/adapt as animals - unless it is assumed these changes will include speech. A contrived or real link between a pineapple and a zebra does not conclude these derived from those extensions, but that they pursue their own despite these imprints.
Why are you quoting something you said, and that Kuresu only quoted, as if Kuresu had said it himself, and then replying to it? You're talking to yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 5:24 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:20 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 151 of 189 (410078)
07-13-2007 6:34 AM


Can this thread be saved?
It's sometimes a little hard to tell what some participants are saying, and so naturally that means one can't always be sure whether they're on-topic or not, but I think it's apparent by now that this thread is off-topic (I helped, I know).
I think that before posting additional messages that participants should reread Message 1.
In my opinion, there is no "most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory." Most creationists have a religious rather than scientific background, so the significance of the scientific evidence is often unapparent to them.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Vacate, posted 07-13-2007 6:52 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 154 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:54 AM Percy has replied
 Message 159 by Doddy, posted 07-14-2007 2:01 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 157 of 189 (410091)
07-13-2007 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by IamJoseph
07-13-2007 6:54 AM


Re: Can this thread be saved?
Hi IamJoseph,
Replying to your message would only draw this thread further off-topic. This isn't a thread for creationists to describe what they see as the flaws in evolutionary theory. There are plenty of threads for that, or you could propose a new one if you like.
This is a thread for evolutionists to propose what they think is the most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory. The role of creationists in this thread would be to critique these proposals.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:54 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 163 of 189 (410362)
07-14-2007 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Rob
07-14-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Where's the beef?
Hi Rob,
Well, I can't see how anything you say in this message echos anything in your earlier message, but if all you were trying to say is that there is little empirical evidence telling us how abiogenesis occurred, I would agree. But this thread isn't about abiogenesis.
From your side of fence and returning to the actual topic, what do you see as the most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Rob, posted 07-14-2007 11:02 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Rob, posted 07-14-2007 3:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 166 of 189 (410381)
07-14-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Rob
07-14-2007 3:35 PM


Re: Where's the beef?
I think you should take these issues to a thread where they'd be on-topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Rob, posted 07-14-2007 3:35 PM Rob has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 181 of 189 (410515)
07-15-2007 2:08 PM


We're drifting off-topic again
IamJoseph raised the issue of how speech developed in man as an example of a critical weakness of evolutionary theory, not as an example of convincing evidence. I think those who want to discuss the evolution of speech should go to another thread. This thread is for proposing and dissecting examples of compelling evidence for evolutionary theory.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by IamJoseph, posted 07-18-2007 6:37 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 186 of 189 (410970)
07-18-2007 9:03 AM


Request for Moderator Assistance
This thread might represent an opportunity for moderators to discourage members from swathing the topic in layers of illogic. Better a thread sit idle than descend into nonsense.
Participants in this thread who would really like to discuss some other topic are hopefully aware that any member may propose a new topic over at [forum=-25].
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 188 of 189 (411946)
07-23-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by RAZD
07-23-2007 10:26 AM


This is off-topic, and I don't agree that creationism's difficulties defining kind comprise evidence for evolution, but I would like to briefly note one thing about this AIG proposal for a definition of kind:
AIG writes:
Groups of living organisms belong in the same created kind if they have descended from the same ancestral gene pool.
So kind would rely upon determinations of genetic relatedness through genetic analysis, which would lead to the conclusion from data already in our possession that all of life is just one kind.
This would change their "You only get dogs from dogs," argument to "You only get life from life." And who could argue with that!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2007 10:26 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2007 1:52 PM Percy has not replied

  
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