Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 301 (282616)
01-30-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
01-30-2006 12:10 PM


At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
and that was that if you believe in Evolution you must accept atheism.
If you want I will be happy to walk through that tedious proof one more time for you step by step.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:15 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 301 (282711)
01-30-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
01-30-2006 8:42 PM


No Christian need reject the TOE.
Still waiting for a response to Message 7.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 8:42 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 301 (282719)
01-30-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
01-30-2006 9:15 PM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
But we've settled it that atheism is definitely a logical inference from the ToE, and any God but the Biblical God also appear to be compatible. Just not the Biblical God.
There's no point, jar. It's been dealt with on this thread already, and reformulated:
Atheism and Any God But the Biblical God are compatible with the ToE
No, that's what you've asserted. You have offerend nothing supportive.
I and many other Christians, many, many, many, many Christians see no conflict at all between the TOE and Christianity.
I can provide proof that it is possible to accept both the TOE and the Christian Biblical GOD. I am a Christian that also accepts the TOE; therefore your asertion HAS been refuted.
If you like I can provide aditional proof.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:29 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 301 (282723)
01-30-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
01-30-2006 9:29 PM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
No, people so far have only made assertions. No proof has been offered by anyone except me so far.
I have said that I believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE. Therefore your assertion is refuted.
I'm sorry Faith, but that is the way reality works. You have asserted something is impossible. I provided evidence that it is possible.
You have been refuted. Doesn't matter what you believe, your assertion is as daid as YEC.
Two plus two does not equal five no matter what you believe.
If you wish I will be happy to provide additional proofs.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:39 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 301 (282725)
01-30-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
01-30-2006 9:39 PM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
Faith, we are on the Science side where you are expected to try to support your assertions.
You said that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
I provided evidence that at least one person, me, believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and also accepts the TOE.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR also believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
So I have provided additional PROOF that your assertion has been falsified.
Would you like additional proof? I can post over 10,000 additional examples you know and will be happy to do so should you not accept that your assertion has been falsified.
No matter what you want to believe, your assertion is as daid as YEC. Two plus two does not equal five no matter what you believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 301 (282730)
01-30-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
01-30-2006 10:19 PM


Additional evidence that Faith's assertion has been Falsified.
Faith has asserted that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE.
I have provided evidence that falsified her assertion.
I believe in the Biblical Christian GOD.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Pastor Wes Aardahl of Faith Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bismarck, ND believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Your point is refuted Faith.
Would you like additional proofs?
I still have over 10,000 of them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:30 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 301 (282732)
01-30-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
01-30-2006 10:30 PM


Faith completely refuted.
Faith has asserted that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE.
I have provided evidence that falsified her assertion.
I believe in the Biblical Christian GOD.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Pastor Wes Aardahl of Faith Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bismarck, ND believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Charles L. Aaron, Jr., Ph.D. the Senior Pastor of Cornerstone United Methodist Church in Garland, TX believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Your point is refuted Faith.
Would you like additional proofs?
I still have over 10,000 of them.
This message has been edited by jar, 01-30-2006 09:34 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:30 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 301 (282741)
01-30-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
01-30-2006 11:07 PM


Faith exhibits wilfull Ignorance
Faith asserted that it was impossible to believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
I provided evidence that refuted her assertion. I believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE. I provided names of other Christian Clergy that accept the TOE. I offered to provide over 10,000 names of Christian Clergy that believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
Her response is...
I will ignore jar's posts, including all his bullying insistence on my attending to them.
That is the hallmark of the YEC. Ignore the evidence that refutes their position.
Here is the statement signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy.
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible - the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark - convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
I repeat: "We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris."
Being a Christian does not mean you have to check your brains at the door.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 11:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:29 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 301 (282762)
01-31-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:29 AM


Faith makes more unsupported assertions
So you want to change the goalposts?
Did you or did you not assert that it is impossible to believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and also support the TOE?
Faith writes:
Again, either NO God or any God except the Biblical God.
in Message 34
If anyone believes in the omnipotent omnipresent omniscient good God of love who did not create the universe with suffering and death in it, that person cannot logically also believe in the ToE which treats suffering and death as natural.
Do you have proof that GOD did not create a world with death in it? I ask because the Bible says that he did. If you believe in the Biblical GOD you MUST believe that he created a universe with death as part of the system.
To support that assertion I point to Genesis. There is a Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. If the Universe did not include death then the God you believe in was a fool. Why create a Tree of Life where there is no death?
If you believe your god created a universe without death then you do not believe in the Biblical GOD.
Genesis 2:8-9
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground”trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 301 (282769)
01-31-2006 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Modulous
01-31-2006 12:50 AM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
No, she said any god except the Biblical God.
Again, either NO God or any God except the Biblical God.
in Message 34.
Since then she's been playing dualing definitions, moving goalposts, wiggling and denying evidence presented.
In addition, the god she describes is not the Biblical GOD as described in Genesis 2 where he places a Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. If there were no death, what would be the point of a Tree of Life?
In addition, it was the fear of the Biblical God that Adam and Eve might eat of that tree and live forever that caused GOD to expel them from the GOE.
Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Faith has some strange idea of the GOD of the Bible, it's just not one that's supported by the Book itself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 1:09 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 301 (282771)
01-31-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:50 AM


Re: Faith makes more unsupported assertions
I believe that God is pure goodness, that he did not make a world full of suffering and death.
That's fine Faith, you can believe in anything you want. I have never said you could not. But that is NOT the god in the Bible.
If you want we can step through the proofs of that once again, beginning with Genesis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 301 (282921)
01-31-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Modulous
01-31-2006 1:09 AM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
The point is that her definition of God is not compatible with evolution.
I have no problem with that. I have never said she was not entiled to believe in any god she wants.
I only object when she tries it imply that her god is the Christian GOD, to encourage keeping children ignorant, to oppress others or to assert falsehoods.
An individuals religious beliefs are very personal and should be respected unless they infringe on the life or rights of another.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 1:09 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 3:45 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 301 (282933)
01-31-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
01-31-2006 3:56 PM


Faith once again makes unsupported assertions.
THEREFORE the Biblical God as TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY worships Him, is incompatible with evolution.
Not true Faith. It looks like I must refute your assertion yet again?
I believe in the Biblical God as TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY worships Him and accept the TOE.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Pastor Wes Aardahl of Faith Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bismarck, ND believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Charles L. Aaron, Jr., Ph.D. the Senior Pastor of Cornerstone United Methodist Church in Garland, TX believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Torben G. Aarsand of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in Hagerstown, MD believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Pamela Abbey of United Methodist Church in Concord, CA believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Jesse Abbott of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, ELCA in Cincinnati, OH believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Your point is refuted Faith.
Would you like additional proofs?
I still have over 10,000 of them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 3:56 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by robinrohan, posted 01-31-2006 5:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 5:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 301 (282937)
01-31-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by robinrohan
01-31-2006 5:06 PM


robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
Christian evolutionists are forced to believe in a cruel God: evolution is cruel.
Again,until you can prove that I believe in a cruel GOD, your point is refuted.
However that is also totally immaterial to the unsupported assertion that Faith made.
Faith claimed:
THEREFORE the Biblical God as TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY worships Him, is incompatible with evolution.
I presented evidence that many Christians believe in the Biblical God as TRADITIONAL CHRISTIANITY worships Him and also accept the TOE. Therefore her assertion is refuted.
You are free if you want to make any wild assertions you want, but you cannot say what it is that I believe. If you read the Bible, there is no evidence of a Fall, rather there are unsupported assertions found in the NT. I believe in a Good GOD, one that created a near perfect if not perfect system, one that has worked for tens of billions of years. I've outlined those beliefs in many other threads.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by robinrohan, posted 01-31-2006 5:06 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by robinrohan, posted 01-31-2006 5:36 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 301 (282939)
01-31-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Modulous
01-31-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Traditional Christianity is...?
Traditional Christianity (and I think this would make a great thread) can only be determined within the context of the era, culture and knowledge base at the times when the question is asked, and the period in question. Christianity is a living, dynamic entity and will change with time.
The point is, and I've mentioned this several times, that religion is primarily a personal experience. For me to claim that only my view defines Christianity is presumptious. There are many different versions. But for Faith to claim that her views are Traditional Christianity is equally ludacrous.
If Faith wishes to say that she cannot accept the TOE within her religious convictions, I don't think that anyone would object at all. However if she wishes to say that Christianity is not compatible with an acceptence of the TOE, then it is my Christian duty to point out that many, many Christians disagree with her.
As pointed out in the Open Letter:
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible - the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark - convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 5:10 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 5:37 PM jar has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024