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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 301 (284446)
02-06-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Modulous
02-06-2006 3:28 PM


Of course it implies no purpose. All those thinkers I mentioned took it to imply no purpose. That was THE philosophical effect of Darwinism at the time and it continues as a general undertone in culture, the psychological undercurrent of all personal identity these days. Why can't this just be acknowledged? "Not providing one" is just a species of denial. If humanity is nothing more than something the physical universe tossed up by accident it most CERTAINLY implies NO PURPOSE to our existence, and it is psychologically FELT to imply no purpose too. There was no purpose to our just happening to get evolved, it could have not happened at any point along the way. There is simply nothing special about humanity in this view. Some entirely other kind of creature could have evolved as the pinnacle of the evolutionary tree. Again, just because WE can invent purposes doesn't change this fact.
I'm not talking about God (yahweh). I am talking about a hypothetical god. A creator god that happens to be cruel. Such a god can exist, have created us for a purpose and have created the 'cruel' evolutionary process. That is theologically consistent with a cruel god and logically consistent with evolution, assuming evolution is cruel.
But I believe Robin's point was that such a construct is not even believed by those who think it up. It's merely a logical construct that you couldn't care less about, so hypothetical it isn't even worth a passing thought, something you have hardly even thought about, just to the barest outlines. The point is that people DON'T believe in such a God and the Creator Gods they do believe in -- not the pantheons but the concepts of an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent God -- are logically incompatible with Darwinism (and let's use this term to cover all the elements involved since you protest the use of the ToE).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2006 3:28 PM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:41 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 287 of 301 (284453)
02-06-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
02-06-2006 4:48 PM


If humanity is nothing more than something the physical universe tossed up by accident it most CERTAINLY implies NO PURPOSE to our existence, and it is psychologically FELT to imply no purpose too.
I just don't get it, Faith. I literally don't see the connection between "not having a purpose provided by Providence" and "not having a purpose at all."
What, in your view, is inherent in the idea of "purpose" that prevents one's purpose from being something they determine for themselves?
Again, just because WE can invent purposes doesn't change this fact.
I don't understand why you so sneeringly dismiss the idea of a self-determined purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 02-06-2006 4:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 02-06-2006 5:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 288 of 301 (284456)
02-06-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by crashfrog
02-06-2006 5:41 PM


If humanity is nothing more than something the physical universe tossed up by accident it most CERTAINLY implies NO PURPOSE to our existence, and it is psychologically FELT to imply no purpose too.
=======
I just don't get it, Faith. I literally don't see the connection between "not having a purpose provided by Providence" and "not having a purpose at all."
I didn't say anything about Providence. All I'm talking about is what seems to be the obvious, logical and in fact historically verified inference about a lack of human purpose from Darwinism.
What, in your view, is inherent in the idea of "purpose" that prevents one's purpose from being something they determine for themselves?
Nothing whatever. You can determine your purpose all you like. That is in fact what people do with Darwinism, make up our own purposes, invent ourselves, our own morality, live as the Aesthete or the Punk or whatever one chooses. It's wide open, not at all being prevented, but the opposite -- there is no FORMAL OBJECTIVE purpose to humanity, so all these subjective invented purposes ARE what we have.
Again, just because WE can invent purposes doesn't change this fact.
=====
I don't understand why you so sneeringly dismiss the idea of a self-determined purpose.
I don't understand why you think I said that "sneeringly" and I also don't understand why you think I'm "dismissing" anything. Subjective self-invented purposes for our identities ARE what we have. What we DON'T have under Darwinism is an OBJECTIVE purpose for humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 5:58 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:59 PM Faith has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 289 of 301 (284459)
02-06-2006 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
02-06-2006 5:51 PM


if indeed evolution implied that there was no god (which it does not.) then just because the chief end of man is NOT to glorify god and enjoy him forever, does not leave us with no purpose. we have great purpose. we have the purpose of surviving and procreating and exploring and naming. even the bible suggests that the purpose of man is to name creation. since we have yet to finish exploring, we have yet to finish naming. and since the universe is expanding, we will probably never finish exploring.
christianity states that animals do not have souls and therefore do not go to heaven. what then is their purpose? if they have no soul then they must have no purpose. if they have no purpose, why don't they disappear in a puff of logic? are you going to tell me that their purpose is to make us happy by food or whatever? that's a rather rude purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 02-06-2006 5:51 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 290 of 301 (284460)
02-06-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
02-06-2006 5:51 PM


It's wide open, not at all being prevented, but the opposite -- there is no FORMAL OBJECTIVE purpose to humanity, so all these subjective invented purposes ARE what we have.
Well, yeah. So?
Invented purpose is all we had in the first place. We were simply mistaken about the source of that purpose.
But the fact that there's no universal purpose for humanity was known long before Darwinism; the evidence for this would be all the people who wandered around, wondering what the hell the purpose of humanity was supposed to be. The fact that all these people had to ask is the proof that there never was one.
What we DON'T have under Darwinism is an OBJECTIVE purpose for humanity.
We don't have it under anything else, either. Why single evolution out for not providing something that it was never supposed to provide, something that nothing provides?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 02-06-2006 5:51 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 301 (284468)
02-06-2006 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by crashfrog
02-06-2006 5:59 PM


We don't have it under anything else, either.
We would have one, maybe, if we were made by God. Evolution shows us there is no God. It's the most powerful evidence there is that there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 301 (284471)
02-06-2006 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by macaroniandcheese
02-06-2006 5:58 PM


we have the purpose of surviving and procreating and exploring and naming.
OK, Brennakimi, you go around and do your naming and I'll do something else. I am interested in getting rid of all mountains and hills. I prefer flat land. So I'm going to work on that, and when I come to the end of my life, I can die satisfied that I have done my duty. Of course, I will not get rid of all the mountains, but I will have made a start, and then the generations that follow me can carry on this mighty endeavor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 5:58 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 6:33 PM robinrohan has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 293 of 301 (284473)
02-06-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 6:28 PM


oh sure
i was trying to find some kind of objective purpose since poor faith seems to be worthless without one. sucks to be her. anyways. i've little interest in naming things. but it is something we do without knowing. it speaks strongly of our habit of labeling things...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:28 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 301 (284475)
02-06-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by macaroniandcheese
02-06-2006 6:33 PM


All purposes are equally arbitrary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 6:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 6:40 PM robinrohan has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 295 of 301 (284477)
02-06-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 6:36 PM


see. i know this.
faith may or may not.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 02-06-2006 06:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:48 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 301 (284478)
02-06-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by macaroniandcheese
02-06-2006 6:40 PM


faith may or may not.
I meant all Subjective purposes are arbitrary.
Faith thinks she and everybody else do have an objective purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 6:40 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by nwr, posted 02-06-2006 6:55 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 300 by ramoss, posted 02-06-2006 8:27 PM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 297 of 301 (284480)
02-06-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 6:48 PM


Faith thinks she and everybody else do have an objective purpose.
We evolved as members of a social species. As such, our purpose is to support the society.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:48 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 7:01 PM nwr has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 301 (284482)
02-06-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by nwr
02-06-2006 6:55 PM


We evolved as members of a social species. As such, our purpose is to support the society.
I don't have much love for my fellow man when considered en masse. I reject that purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by nwr, posted 02-06-2006 6:55 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by nwr, posted 02-06-2006 8:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 299 of 301 (284493)
02-06-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 7:01 PM


That you choose to reject it, does not demonstrate that there is no such purpose.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 7:01 PM robinrohan has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 300 of 301 (284499)
02-06-2006 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 6:48 PM


Faith does not have objective evidence of that. Faith just has subjective evidence of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 6:48 PM robinrohan has not replied

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