Hello and welcome SunAlsoRises.
SunAlsoRises writes:
I recently (foolishly) decided to answer a devout creationist's question on a local forum, and it's started to get out of hand. I am in no way a skilled debater, and I only have a rudimentary grasp on many of the points I'm trying to make.
The best way to become a better debater and to sure up your understanding of these points, is to get involved in debate about them. So as frustrating as it can be to engage someone like this, I'd say it's healthy to do it every once in a while. The person you are debating here clearly doesn't know much about biology, paleontology, and science in general, and seems to buy into large scale conspiracy theories to explain away what little they do know about science.
quote:
Hey! We've found a lizard breast-bone. Hmmmm . . . birds have a similar breast bone - therefore according to my dogma (faith) in evolution, they are related and birds came from lizards. Poppycock
Scientific hypotheses and theories aren't dogma/ faith because they are based on empirical evidence and are amenable to future findings of empirical evidence. This is quite different from the standard in religious dogma/ faith. If a scientific theory were to come along that could better explain the diversity of life on our planet than evolution, it would be recognized as such by the scientific community. It would be judged, like virtually all scientific theories, on it's ability to explain existing evidence, to make unique predictions about future experiments/ discoveries, and it would have to be falsifiable, in that some observations could theoretically be made that would be inconsistent with it.
As far as the connection between dinosaurs and birds go, it goes deeper than breast bone similarity. The most recent evidence I've seen for the theory is this:
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They have now concluded that the dinosaur - named as Aerosteon riocoloradensis (air bones from the Rio Colorado) - had air sacs within its body cavity, closely mirroring the breathing systems of birds.
'Air bone' dinosaur is missing link with birds
It shows that a dinosaur was found to breath in the unique way that birds do. Birds have hollow bones, a unique trait that happens to be shared by the dinosaurs that birds are thought to have evolved from.
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Though the size of an elephant, Aerosteon (air-AHHS-tee-on) had many lightweight, hollow, birdlike bones - and that birdlike system of breathing.
Dinosaur fossils may provide evolutionary link to modern birds
Feathers are also unique to birds amongst modern animals, and paleontologists have indeed found fossils or feathered dinosaurs.
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An international team of scientists believes two Chinese fossils of feathered dinosaurs -- animals with down-covered bodies, strong legs and stubby arms -- are the strongest evidence yet that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
Scientists: Fossils prove that birds evolved from dinosaurs (1998)
BTW the above article shows an example of scientific skepticism amongst scientists, showing that all scientists don't just dogmatically accept the same explanations on faith.
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Alan Feduccia, an evolutionary biologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, said the discoveries are "very interesting," but he said they do not provide immediate and final proof that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
He said the new fossils are dated after those of the first bird, suggesting that the fossils could be either feathered dinosaurs or primitive birds that happened to resemble dinosaurs.
"The age dates for these things are still unresolved," said Feduccia. "We need to back up and take a closer look at these things before drawing any final conclusions."
Scientists: Fossils prove that birds evolved from dinosaurs
The most convincing evidence I've personally seen, however, in regards to the dinosaur bird link came earlier this year.
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A new study of ancient proteins retrieved from a Tyranosaurus rex fossil confirms the long-hypothesized evolutionary connection between dinosaurs and modern birds, experts say.
The new research follows a breakthrough study last year in which scientists reported the recovery and partial molecular sequencing of T. rex and mastodon proteins.
T. Rex Protein "Confirms" Bird-Dinosaur Link
Again, despite how definitive these findings seem, there is still some (limited) skepticism amongst scientists over how conclusive they are.
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But doubts remain. Peggy Ostrom is a biologist at Michigan State University in East Lansing and an expert on fossil proteins.
Many have remained skeptical about the T. rex protein findings, she said, because of the small size of the sequences.
"They have a very tiny bit of data relative to the size of the collagen molecule," Ostrom said.
"What's going to be really convincing is to actually see some more sequences," she added.
T. Rex Protein "Confirms" Bird-Dinosaur Link
So time and more research will help confirm these findings and allow us to better understand the evolutionary scenario. Doesn't sound anything like dogmatic religious faith to me.
Similarities between dinosaurs and birds have been found in comparing their overall skeletal anatomy, the specific makeup of their bones, the way they breathed, the fact that they both could have feathers, and the molecular sequencing of their proteins. The line of evidence is quite impressive, and once again, no dogmatic faith is needed.
My post has already gotten a bit long so I will stop here in responding to your post, but I may return to address the rest and help you more if I can. Don't get frustrated. Just state the facts and use logic (and google!) the best you can. Once you've done that, it's up to others to recognize the strength of your argument, or to continue going on believing what they want to.
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