The Origin of Music

As all religions are an appeal to emotion, this argument is not different. It is an appeal to emotion and not to the intellect and can be reduced to: Isn't music beautiful, it must be created by God (often lumped in with Art and other things Christians find pretty)It fits in nicely with the: eveything good = God, everything bad = Satan, rationale.The only problem is that music makes perfect sense in light of evolution. We are pattern seeking animals, and the most pleasant music is created with strong patterns of rythm and melody. Music plays a varied role to humans, mirroring similar functions with our fellow animals. Music is an addictive and powerful emotive stimulant.Because of our intellect our music is proportionately more complex than that produced by our fellow animals.As decsribed above, it is used for courtship. The appeal of musicians, even DJs, the images of MTV, and the experience of nightclubs, rave parties, concerts and going back a bit, dance halls, attests to this. This parallels the sexual calls of animals from birds to whales.It is used for relationship bonding, from the classic serenading scenario, to the mother singing to the young child to calm it to sleep. Very akin to a cat's purr.It is also a very strong social tool, and in this use it is not disimilar to some recreational drugs such as alcohol. It elevates moods, creates euphoria, brings people together and helps them bond. This can be seen in music concerts, pubs, clubs and, of course, in churches.And, because of it's emotive power, it can be used as a tool for indoctrination and control. This can be seen in almost all totalitarianisms, whether they be political or religious (they both use the same methods of thought control and indoctrination). This can be seen in military marching songs and music, political and nationalistic songs, and religious singing.Music can induce trance like, euphoric states, that can be addictive and can contain indoctrinating messages. Of course, someone stated above that music was created "to facilitate the worship of God". Any God.But even in the religious context, music makes evolutionary sense. It creates social bonds, supports religious indoctrination (religion itself is an evolutionary compulsion), and facilitates sexual selection within churches themselves.I support the latter assertion from my studies of Australian Christian churches where a reasonable number of sometimes socially inept single males are drawn to religion because the chauvanistic environments are very condusive to males finding wives. And those of signifcance within Christian churches, the leaders, musicians and vocalists often have the pick of the crop!But note how even though Christians emotively assert music is from God, music that occurs outside of the context of religious indoctrination, eg: MTV, raves, clubs, rock concerts, particularly heavy metal (!) is from Satan.How very convenient.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 08-11-2004 12:21 AM

Nighttrain wrote:

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they discovered that each cell is expanding and contracting a billionth of a metre a thousand times a second but even more amazing is that the resulting micro vibrations actually generate a musical note equivalent to C sharp.

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This may be the answer. On the other hand, it may not be anything at all! (lifted from your post, lifted from another forum)!Interesting. Humans tend to find that music sounds incomplete unless it ends on C. Most soungs do end on C, as a result.

jazzlover wrote:

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This all boils down to in whether you believe in the Bible or not.

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The point is the music is easily explicable within the evolutionary model and we do not need to resort to supernatural explanations.

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As I mentioned in an earlier post music existed in heavcen long before creation and was (and still is) the worshiping tool for angels. We dont believe God created music just because its beautiful but because the bible mentions its existance in heaven before creation.

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Rightio. This begs the validity of the Bible question, but that is outside this thread. How is the Biblical explaination better than the evolutionary one?

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But do birds really sing or are we assuming that they do just because they communicate in what appears to us as a melody. And as I said before a simple melody is not music. Dogs communiate through barking and growling and do we say that dogs sing? No Why Not? because dog barks do not appear melodic to us. That means that we decide which animal makes music and which doesn't. What does an animal know about melodies or music? Nothing. A dogs bark or a little bird's whistling is only a pattern that only another dog or bird understands just the way sentences follw a certain pattern that we understand. Using this reasonig I get to the conclusion that when i speak to somebody else I'm singing.

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Good point. But it's still the same. "Music" (liberally defined), whether it be the drone from crickets, dogs barking at night or bird song is still all about communication, for sexual purposes or bonding, stimulating, comforting, and building relationships. Human music is the same: we have just elevated it's complexity and role because we are considerably more intelligent than our animal kin.An comparison can be drawn with sex itself. Like animals, humans have an instictual desire to procreate. But we have risen above the instinct to apply sexuality in much more complex ways other than merely for reproduction. We use sex for other things from conveying feelings to fun and recreation and mere stimulation.In some contexts music is the same: where music used to play a role in bonding and communication, we can now listen to music by ourselves on our stereos and derive the same stimulation without the presence of other people. We can also enjoy sex by ourselves! Unless your a Christian...

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Why does music appeal to emotions? because its spiritual.

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No, it's physiological. Music stimulates endorphins and affects moods. That's why it is great for everything from sex, to bonding and to indoctrination. Just like any other endorphin stimulating activity, whether it be natural or drug induced.I've actually always been quite surprised that more religions don't use drugs for indoctrination as opposed to natural forms of achieving "highs", like singing, chanting, trances, meditation etc. I suppose the outcome is less easy to control!A cult of alcoholics. Hmmmm. Sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous. No hang on, they just substitute one "drug" for another....!

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Is there an evolutionary theory for inspiration?

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I suspect that those that are more inspirational, like musicians, poets, artists and leaders often have more sex.

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When i"m writting music and a specific melody comes to my mind I use my intellect to write it down (so that i can communicate it with the rest of the band) and arrange it but how do you explain that moment of inspiration that made that melody come out in your head? Once again it is spiritual.

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Who would ever want to leave these sorts of emotive religious explainations of reality for the stark world in which we are merely a complex bag of chemical soup?Jazzlover, never be underwhelmed by the experiences of the world, and the human mind and body, even if it is the mere result of complex chemical interactions. I experience the same levels of euphoria that you do from various aspects of reality: music, nature, sports and relationships. I just do not need to resort to a fantastical explanation of it all to make it any better.

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If music is for mating how come angels don't mate?

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That's a bit left field.

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Because music is not for mating but instead to deliver a messege.

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Yes, it's for communication, but it's sexually orientated, like everything humans do. Reproduction being the sole purpose of all life, afterall.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 08-12-2004 02:37 AM

Pinky wrote:

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I believe the same thing can be stated for art in general. Some have thought it ridiculous that I've used the bower bird's ornate construction of its breeding bower as an example of animal art - yet what are the ultimate consequences of a human's act of creating art? The consequences are just what you list above, "communication, for sexual purposes or bonding, stimulating, comforting, and building relationships."These consequences are the same for the bower bird as they are for the human.

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Agree.

Jazzlover writes:

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Really? I wonder how the evolutionary theory explains what is a melody,harmony and rhythm. Does a bird with a modern style of singing is more fertile than a bird with a baroque style of singing

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How did you write this without reading RAZD above? :RAZD wrote: "You miss the point of sexual selection. Why do only Peacocks have such large fancy tails? It is because of feedback sexual selection causing an attribute to evolve more than it needs to for any other purpose. Such feedback selection can easily turn hoots into harmony, movement into dance and body painting into art."

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Gilgamesh writes:
How is the Biblical explaination better than the evolutionary one?Jazzlover responds:

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You tell me brother.

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Your Biblical explanation is akin to primitive mans explanation of a volcano being the wrath of an earth or fire God. Explaning music in terms of God has absolutelyno explanatory power, and, as in the case of the volcano, is utterly wrong. Science developed when we stopped using God as the explanation for real world phenonmena.Jazzlover writes:

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I agree on this but not just communicate; worship

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I addressed this. Because of the emotive and addictive power of music and song, religions use this medium for indoctrination. You call it worship. Music has been used to motivate soldiers to march into battle, rally behind a political leader, or worship any given God.I've studied the use of music within Christian churches at great length. It is one of a plethora of control and persuasion techniques utilised by such churches.Jazzlover writes:

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I believe instinct is something in animals that makes them do stuff (procreate for example) without them being able to control it. What about people like me that dont want to have any kids. I can use protection or just abstain myself. If i abstain myself, decide to use protection, or even change my mind and decide to have kids i know what i am doing and there is no instinct in me for anything. When we have sex whether to procreate or for fun nothing is forcing us to do it like it happens to animals. We have a choice not instinct on this subject.

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This is well off topic. We are just animals too: just considerbly more intelligent. We are similarly compelled by instinct to procreate, eat and seek shelter etc. We can defer our instincts to indulge in other compulsions, determined by our needs and priorities in life. Animals, to a lesser extent, can also do this. You see this in a dog when you train it to not eat food not laid out for it, not go to the toilet inside the house and to not hump the next door neighbours poodle.Jazzlover writes:

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So what youre basically telling me here is that when you turn on the stereo at home and find yourself alone the music makes you fuck the pillow. I hope you dont listen to your music while your mother is around. Does trash metal music turns you on as well? dont answer that.

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Twit.As I stated, while music in many contexts is related to sex, it is a form of comminication that induces and emotive response (sexual or otherwise). Our ability to record music and play it back without the actual human interaction element of it is intriguing. Our intellect has allowed us to develop the means to derive the pleasure without the interaction from which the pleasure was primarily derived. I tried to draw an analogy between this and primates ability to transcend the act of procreation by being able to sexual stimulate oneself while alone. I guessed you'd have trouble responding the the latter point without giggling like a school boy.Jazzlover writes:

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Thats because we dont like to fool ourselves playing with our minds. We dont conform to anything less than the real thing.

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Well it depends on what variant of Christianity to subscribe to, but in many cases it actually means an intolerble adolescent life of desire and significant guilt and shame, followed by a ridiculously young virgin marriage and very average married sexual life. That aint the real thing.Jazzlover writes:

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there's no phsycology involved. you'll only understand this when you have a real spiritual experience. And the day you do and still cant tell the difference between a spiritual experience(having your soul leave its body and walk around the house while you can see your body sleeping in bed) or a physcological one (jerking off) youll find out that humans are not as inteligent as we think we are. At least to the churches ive been there no such thing as control. An honest church never violates your right of free will. If you dont agree with a church you can be free to stand up and leave.

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How do you know that I haven't had a spititual experience, or indeed many of them in many different contexts? It is because that we are intelligent that we can identify where these experiences come from. They come from our own minds. Because I acknowldege this fact, it doesn't mean that my spiritual experiences are any less thrilling than yours.I am not aware that out of body experiences, as you describe, are a claimed Christian ability. They are normally associated with new age claims. I'd probably keep that one under you hat.I'd argue that every single Christian church that I have been to, from liberal to cultist relies on elements of control. Even the most liberal tend to use the persuasive power of the promise of eternal life vs some other much less desirable fate, for starters. The most cultist use everthing from indoctrinating song and chant (glossolalia), guilt and shame, information control, misinformation, physical restraint, exlcusion from non-church social groups, childhood indoctrination, thought re-inforcement, methods of punishment: like suspension and disenfellowshipping, to name a few. These feature make some Christian chruches the most immoral organisations in our community. Particularly when you notice how they prey on the emotionally and physcholically vulnerable.It's very hard for someone to leave a church when they honestly believe that they will go to hell if they do so.Jazzlover writes:

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Now I understand why you people think life is meaningless. If reproduction was our purpose in life why dont we die after losing our virginity

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For you, life is meaningless without God. For us without God, life has meaning waiting to be defined anyway you wish. Of course, on a biological level, the purpose of life is to reproduce. But as we have stated above our intellect allows us to transcend that compulsion and find a greater meaning. For many it is a God. For many others it is family, career, helping others, or just maximising happiness.It is whatever you wish to make up.