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Author Topic:   Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes
RAZD
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Message 1 of 220 (493867)
01-11-2009 9:40 AM


In Message 369 percy says

Tell you what, why don't you propose a thread to enumerate frauds, misrepresentations and significant mistakes for evolution versus those for creation, and we'll keep a count of each. In fact, if someone proposes such a thread I'll promote it as quickly as I can, I think it would be illuminating.

Here are some definitions:

fraud -n1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
    a. One that defrauds; a cheat.
    b. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.
(American Heritage Dictionary, 2009)

hoax -n
1. An act intended to deceive or trick.
2. Something that has been established or accepted by fraudulent means.
(American Heritage Dictionary, 2009)

GROUND RULES:


  • it must meet the definitions given above
  • to be a "scientific hoax\fraud" it needs to be deliberately perpetuated by a scientist, preferably an evolutionary biological scientist (cold fusion does not qualify)
  • to be a "creationist hoax\fraud" it needs to be deliberately perpetuated by a creationist

Pretty simple criteria.

Here is a starting list:

Nebraska Man - does not qualify, the initial publication was an interpretation of a single tooth, the rest is mostly all newspaper hype (including the (in)famous picture), and the original scientist determined it was a pig on further investigation. No scientist has since claimed it was a hominid fossil.

Piltdown Man - does not qualify: the hoax was perpetuated ON science, not by a scientist. It was exposed by science.

China bird ancestor "fossils" - does not qualify: perpetuated by non-scientific people looking to make money, exposed by science.

Personally I think we'd have to list almost every existing YEC creationist website (I say "almost" for scientific tentativity, as I am not aware of any that stick to the truth, but it is possible ...). Certainly every one that has a false definition of evolution or that portrays evolution incorrectly is a fraud.

Certainly Carl Baugh (his degree is a hoax, it doesn't exist): Glen Rose Man - fraud perpetuated by Carl Baugh, exposed by science. Baugh (a creationist) continues to present it in his "museum" perpetuating his hoax to gullible people, complete with a "footprint" that the original carver admits to making.

Kent Hovind is a shoe-in (convicted of fraud, his degree is a fraud from a paper mill)

The "creation museum" (showing adam and eve and a vegetarian TRex)

Then there is Harun Yahah (a muslim creationist, who also happens to be a convicted extortionist and anal rapist of underage women) - he puts Hovind to shame.

Is that a good start?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : -

Edited by RAZD, : code correction


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RAZD
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Message 3 of 220 (493881)
01-11-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
01-11-2009 10:45 AM


Creationist turn
Thanks Ned,

Now it's the creationists turn to list all those evolutionist frauds and hoaxes.

Enjoy


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RAZD
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Message 5 of 220 (493917)
01-11-2009 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Kapyong
01-11-2009 4:48 PM


Welcome to the fray, Kapyong.

It has a page on the Peppered Moth where it claims this experiment was a hoax, based on staged photographs! The page contains false nonsense and is clearly written by a creationist.
I claim this as a Creationist Hoax.

Yes, that the whole "icons of evolution" bit on peppered moths is a false portrayal of the science on peppered moths, and qualifies as a hoax all on its own, has been demonstrated on the Peppered Moths and Natural Selection" thread. I also note that the creationist article (by John Morris) that was cited is still up, still making false statements, still fraudulently representing what the experiment was designed to accomplish.

So this hoax is ongoing now.

They also cannot distinguish reality from jokes
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoaxsites.html
http://www.brookview.karoo.net/Stick_Insects/

Hilarious.

Here's another fraudulent site:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
see http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution for the usual creationist PRATTs

Enjoy.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Goose a link that seemed correct but was not clickable.


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RAZD
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Message 13 of 220 (494676)
01-17-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
01-11-2009 7:54 PM


The McMurdo Seal Fraud
Hey Coyote,

I have to agree with you here, as most of the claims of "unreliability" can be shown to be outright fraud.

Google {McMurdo Seal carbon date} and you get a list of creationist sites that all list the same basic story in various forms (it seems to be reaching into the category of urban myth). Here is one site:

http://www.archaeologyexpert.co.uk/RadioCarbonDating.html

quote:
Archaeologists are Concerned
The unreliability of carbon 14 date testing is a great concern to honest archaeologists. They get particularly concerned when C14 testing shows obviously inaccurate results and they are left in uncertainty about the reliability of the dates that they have previously never questioned.
...
A freshly killed seal at McMurdo Sound, Antarctica, yielded a death age of 1300 years ago.

Aside from the fact that "honest archaeologists" know about the reservoir effect and how to account for it, this site repeats a number of PRATTs and is obviously an unreliable site for an intelligent open-minded skeptic.

This particular fraud is apparently due to Kent Hovind (what a surprise) misrepresenting a reported instance of the reservoir effect:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html

quote:
A freshly killed seal was carbon-14 dated at 1300 years old.

Source: Hovind, Kent,

Response:

1. This claim derives from Wakefield (1971):

Radiocarbon analysis of specimens obtained from mummified seals in southern Victoria Land has yielded ages ranging from 615 to 4,600 years. However, Antarctica sea water has significantly lower carbon-14 activity than that accepted as the world standard. Therefore, radiocarbon dating of marine organisms yields apparent ages that are older than true ages, but by an unknown and possibly variable amount. Therefore, the several radiocarbon ages determined for the mummified seal carcasses cannot be accepted as correct. For example, the apparent radiocarbon age of the Lake Bonney seal known to have been dead no more than a few weeks was determined to be 615 +/- 100 years. A seal freshly killed at McMurdo had an apparent age of 1,300 years.

This is the well-known reservoir effect that occurs also with mollusks and other animals that live in the water. It happens when "old" carbon is introduced into the water. In the above case of the seal, old carbon dioxide is present within deep ocean bottom water that has been circulating through the ocean for thousands of years before upwelling along the Antarctic coast.

Wakefield, Dort, Jr., 1971. Mummified seals of southern Victoria Land. Antarctic Journal 6(5): 210-211.


This is just another creationist taking something out of context and pretending they know something scientist don't know (or hide).

This is a fraudulent claim for two reasons:

(1) the carbon-14 dating method is based on atmospheric carbon being incorporated into the organic material being tested.

(2) no mention is made of the reservoir effect, a well known and documented effect that recognizes that marine organisms are not incorporating atmospheric carbon.

From http://www.c14dating.com/corr.html

quote:
A Conventional Radiocarbon Age or CRA, does not take into account specific differences between the activity of different carbon reservoirs. A CRA is derived using an age calculation based upon the decay corrected activity of the absolute radiocarbon standard (1890 AD wood) which is in equilibrium with atmospheric radiocarbon levels (as mentioned previously, 1890 wood is no longer used as the primary radiocarbon standard, instead Oxalic Acid standards I and II were correlated with the activity of the original standard). In order to ascertain the ages of samples which were formed in equilibrium with different reservoirs to these materials, it is necessary to provide an age correction. Implicit in the Conventional Radiocarbon Age BP is the fact that it is not adjusted for this correction. In this page, we consider natural reservoir variations and variations brought about by human interaction.
...
One of the most commonly referenced reservoir effects concerns the ocean. The average difference between a radiocarbon date of a terrestrial sample such as a tree, and a shell from the marine environment is about 400 radiocarbon years (see Stuiver and Braziunas, 1993). This apparent age of oceanic water is caused both by the delay in exchange rates between atmospheric CO2 and ocean bicarbonate, and the dilution effect caused by the mixing of surface waters with upwelled deep waters which are very old (Mangerud 1972). A reservoir correction must therefore be made to any conventional shell dates to account for this difference. Reservoir corrections for the world oceans can be found at the Marine Reservoir Correction Database, a searchable database online at Queen's University, Belfast and the University of Washington. Human bone may be a problematic medium for dating in some instances due to human consumption of fish, whose C14 label will reflect the ocean reservoir. In such a case, it is very difficult to ascertain the precise reservoir difference and hence apply a correction to the measured radiocarbon age.
(color for emPHAsis)

In other words, reporting the seal age without the reservoir correction, or noting that a reservoir effect is involved, is not reporting the true measured age of the seal.

Here are the listed corrections for locations around McMurdo Sound


MapNo Lon Lat DeltaR DeltaRErr Locality C14age

523 -56.98 -63.40 829 50 Hope Bay 1280
522 -67.28 -67.87 956 40 25-30 m depth 1416
521 -67.00 -68.65 1016 39 25-30 m depth 1476
519 -90.58 -68.78 767 57 120 m depth 1215

You will note, that with these dates for the uncorrected reservoir effect, an 1300 year C-14 age for a seal in that area is completely expected, and not of any concern at all ... for an honest archaeologist ... or an open-minded skeptic.

Meanwhile, Kent Hovind is in jail, convicted of fraud.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ,,


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 16 of 220 (494696)
01-17-2009 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Nighttrain
01-17-2009 8:46 PM


Ron Shyster Wyatt?
Hey Nighttrain, I believe it was James

re Ron Wyatt, I don't know where to start ...

The "boat shaped object" (where a larger picture shows some 20+ similar objects ...

or the anchor\drogue stones ...


Click to enlarge

... I'd call them "hull beaters"

Even christians think he's a fraud.

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/

Enjoy


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RAZD
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Message 19 of 220 (494703)
01-17-2009 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NosyNed
01-17-2009 10:03 PM


Re: Time for the Creationists now? Calling Peg?
Peg, Message 362

there have been many scientific frauds in the recent past that show that some will go to extraordinary lengths for evolution

Seeing as no single hoax has been exposed by a creationist ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : peg


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RAZD
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Message 20 of 220 (494706)
01-17-2009 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
01-17-2009 9:29 PM


Dendrochronology falsehoods and facts
Another one is the falsehoods creationists say about dendrochronology, such as documented on this (closed) thread regarding Don Batten's Tree Ring "study".

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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Message 24 of 220 (494759)
01-18-2009 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Taz
01-18-2009 2:09 AM


Re: Dendrochronology falsehoods and facts
Hey Taz,

We know for a fact that they have the knowledge.

No we don't. We know that they have been given the information. You are dealing with people that don't know what falsehood is, because they only have one test for truth: does it fit inside their black box.

See Message 185 and Message 186 for my take on this behavior.

You can see examples on that thread.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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Message 26 of 220 (494762)
01-18-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by JonF
01-18-2009 10:51 AM


Re: The McMurdo Seal Fraud
The seal is already there, he just doesn't go into the detail for the C-14 age in the area the seal was found in, so he may want to add it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html

The coal one may be there, but I can't find it.

Of course this whole list is nothing but a list of creationist falsehoods and fraudulent claims

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : update

Edited by RAZD, : added

Edited by RAZD, : sp


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RAZD
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Message 34 of 220 (494852)
01-19-2009 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by fallacycop
01-18-2009 2:00 AM


Standards of Truth
Hey fallacycop

A lie requires knowledge (of the fact that you are uttering a falsehoods) and intent (to deceive).

This, of course, lets off all the deluded and ignorant creationists that think they are passing on the truth and don't know the facts or the reality.

It comes down to the Dawkins Dilemma: anyone who doesn't understand is either to stupid, ignorant, malicious, or insane, ... to which I add deluded.

The fraud and hoax and lies issue really lies in the area of malicious: intentionally promoting false information in order to mislead and delude the gullible wanna-believers, and make money fame etc in the process.

The people who are deluded and mislead, and who then regurgitate the fraud\hoax\lies, are really only guilty of not checking the facts or not knowing how to check the facts against reality.

Take "someonewhocares", who came to this forum full of pride in having put together a website for the ->>TRUTH<<-, and who had a number of falsehoods included in his essay, including Lucy's Knee, and issues with the age of the earth. He has made some very minor "corrections" to his essay since visiting here (see what he did with Lucy's Knee), but they are not significant when you see he still includes Piltdown Man, and erroneous information on the upright posture of australopithicus.

For an essay that pretends to be highly concerned with the ->>TRUTH<<-, it includes a number of easy to spot falsehoods.

This kid is not stupid, nor ignorant, he doesn't appear to be malicious, but he is curiously unable to ascertain the truth of some things, because of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and delusion: he thinks he is right, and that eventually the evidence will back him up.

He, rather obviously, has only one test for ->>TRUTH<<-, and that is his belief.

To the extent that he knowingly and intentionally includes information in his essay, without knowing\understanding that it is false, means it is a fraud, full of falsehoods. This is typical of most creationist sites that just regurgitate false information: they believe it is true (or will be).

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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Message 38 of 220 (494907)
01-19-2009 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminNosy
01-19-2009 8:35 PM


Existing James Ossuary Thread
See Jesus Tomb Found

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 40 of 220 (496032)
01-25-2009 9:15 PM


New Hoax\Fraud site just in ... Creation Lies for Children
See A Creation Website For Children

This link was proudly provided by the author:

garbage in garbage out website

Setting up a site specifically to feed false information to children is pretty despicable in my opinion.

To be proud of it, is just evidence of delusion.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : chain

Edited by RAZD, : ...

Edited by RAZD, : e


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RAZD
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Message 41 of 220 (512741)
06-20-2009 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-11-2009 9:40 AM


bump for Doubletime
For Doubletime - to see if he can add any new ones.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 42 of 220 (512771)
06-20-2009 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-11-2009 9:40 AM


Jack Chick - the creationist hoax in comic book form
Another creationist hoaxster to add to the list:

For Doubletime,

I just checked on another of your pet hoaxes:

Along with the new guinnea man that was said to be one of our ancestors that lived today but later on turn out to belong to a modern race. ( Another HOAX)

I did a google on "new guinea man fossil" and once again there were few hits that were relevant:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/bigdaddy.html

quote:
"Big Daddy?" is a small anti-evolution comic book tract by evangelist Jack Chick.
...
This is a typical rehashing of the usual creationist chestnuts. It ignores almost all the the real evidence, misrepresents the real fossils that are discussed (Heidelberg Man, Peking Man, Neandertal Man), of course mentions Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man, and finally lists some fossils that have never been claimed to be anything but Homo sapiens (New Guinea Man, Cro-Magnon Man)
...
The real oddity in Chick's list is "New Guinea Man". As far as I know, no one has ever proposed this as any sort of transitional form. It presumably refers to fragments of a fossil modern human skull thought to be about 5000 years old found at Aitape (now Eitape) about 60 years ago. This is the only human fossil ever found in New Guinea, and is very obscure; I have never seen it even mentioned in any mainstream scientific or popular literature on human origins. The only place (other than Big Daddy) I have ever seen it referred to is a 1961 book by Canadian creationist Evan Shute, Flaws in the Theory of Evolution. Shute merely mentions the existence of this fossil in a list of many other fossils and does not discuss it individually, so Chick may have found out about this fossil from another unknown source.

This little list has been widely copied. If you see a reference to New Guinea Man, or read that Heidelberg Man was "built from a jaw bone that was conceded by many to be quite human" or that Peking Man is "supposedly 500,000 years old, but all evidence has disappeared", you'll know it was cribbed from this little booklet.


So there you are: this is a hoax hoax - it never was misrepresented by science, but is a creationist fabrication from head to toe.

And not just any creationist fabrication but a Jack Chick fabrication ...

From Catholic Answers
http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp

quote:
Chick Tracts
Their Origin and Refutation

The Nightmare World of Jack T. Chick

You’ve seen them.

Perhaps left in a phone booth, Laundromat, or other public place. Maybe a Fundamentalist coworker or a street evangelist gave one to you. Perhaps a child gave one to your child at school. They have titles such as Are Roman Catholics Christian?, The Death Cookie, and Why Is Mary Crying? They are Chick tracts—tiny cartoon booklets produced by Jack T. Chick ("J.T.C.") and his publishing house, Chick Publications.

You’ve seen them . . . but have you read one? Do so, and you step into the nightmarish world of Jack T. Chick.

In this world, few things are as they appear. It is a world of shadow and intrigue, a world of paranoia and conspiracy theories, a world where demons haunt people sincerely trying to follow God, and the Catholic faith is the devil’s greatest plot against mankind.

Here are just a few things you will "learn" if you start reading Chick tracts and comic books:


  • The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.[1]

  • But the conspiracy is much broader than this, and it has been going on for a very long time. In the sixth century, for instance, Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.[2]

  • The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.[3] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.[4]

  • "Jesuits worked closely with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin" to create Communism, and it was "believed that soon . . . Communism would rise up as the new strong daughter of the Vatican."[5] It was Rome that instigated the Bolshevik Revolution and the murder of the czar’s family.[6] The Communist "liberation theology" movement also is a Vatican plot.[7]

  • The Nazi Holocaust of the 1940s was a Vatican-controlled attempt to exterminate Jews and heretics.[8] Further, "Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were backed by the Vatican for the purpose of setting up a one-world government to usher in the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ under Pope Pius XII."[9]

  • The Vatican conspiracy is so extensive that, through the Jesuits, Rome controls the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, international bankers, the Mafia, the Club of Rome, the Masons, and the New Age movement.[10]

  • The Jesuits created the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Unity, Christian Science, and other religious groups.[11]

  • "Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years"[12] and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.[13]

Tracts are only one of the ways Chick spreads his messages of hate and paranoia. His website (www.chick.com) lists large-size comic books, posters, booklets, books, videos, and DVDs for sale. Still, it is the tracts for which he is most famous. According to Chick Publications, more than 500 million of them have been distributed.


Notice that this is not an "evolutionist" response to the quackery of Jack Chick, but it comes from the Catholic Church.

Jack Chick is a hoax, anything he says is most likely either a total fabrication, an outright lie, or an absurd falsehood.

His "new guinea man" is but one example of his false hoaxes.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2009 9:40 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 43 of 220 (518244)
08-04-2009 5:20 PM


Add "the stones of ICA" to the creationist fraud list
This is contributed by wirrkalaj in Message 73 on 101 evidences for a young age...

The 'stones of Ica'

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710_1.html

quote:
The stones are almost certainly modern, created by local villagers to sell to gullible tourists. Two peasants from Callango, Basilio Uchuya and his wife, Irma Gutierrez de Aparcana, have admitted to carving the stones they sold to Cabrera, basing their designs on illustrations from comic books, school books, and magazines (Polidoro 2002).

The Ica stones reputedly give evidence for a highly advanced, very ancient civilization, but no other trace of such a civilization exists. (The Nazca drawings are nearby, but they do not depict any dinosaurs or evidence for advanced technology.)


An admitted fraud, which in science would be sufficient evidence to discard them as evidence of anything, just as Piltdown man was discarded when scientists demonstrated that it was a fraud.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 1:02 AM RAZD has responded

  
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