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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 8 of 239 (326794)
06-27-2006 11:26 AM


Seriously the punch-line here is that it would take an ark the size of a small county to cart around a pair of every "kind" whatever that is. I don't really know why we need to make the ark story as believed by YECs even more rediculous than it already is. Obviously the story was told without the knowledge of how vast the "kind" biosphere actually is and as such the writers concieved of an ark big enough to deal with the many dozens rather than many thousands of species that would need to be preserved in a global flood.

As rediculous as you try to make a non-supernaturally protected ark seem, the YECer only has to resort to their favorite catch all, "things were different." I mean common, we don't know what traits the proto-cat or proto-horse creature had. Maybe all animals had some kind of super-awesome-hibernate feature that they subsequently lost due to super-fast-hyper-mega-in-kind evolution that occurred right after the flood.

Personally I think the whole YEC standard sequence of:

{identify problem with a scientific Genesis} => {insert ad-hoc spastic, insane asylum style reasoning} => {self gratifying plausability to maintain worldview}

is far more damning than just showing how rediculous it would be to get the myth to work in reality. At the end of the day you all are going to get some number of food/care stuffs that is many times the size of the proposed ark. But so what? As damning to the YEC misinterpretation of the flood story as it is, it is no where near as bad as the crazy talk that is bound to occur to reason away the base challange.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 11 of 239 (326803)
06-27-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by kalimero
06-27-2006 11:34 AM


Re: Dino's you say?
It seems, if we are trying to make the BEST case for fitting everthing in the ark look rediculous, that we should assume the dinos were not on board. I mean seriously, there were dinos that alone would fill the entire volume of the ark if you ground them up into sausage. The "honest" YEC would have to either dismiss the literal reading of the passage that 2 of EVERY kind was on board or they just ad-hoc away saying that Noah went and collected eggs instead of the actual dinos.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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 Message 10 by kalimero, posted 06-27-2006 11:34 AM kalimero has not yet responded

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 25 of 239 (326885)
06-27-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by CK
06-27-2006 1:46 PM


Hibernation changes food requirements
I think the super-awesome-hibernation-skillz of the animals may be a "valid" *cough* response to the whole food requirements problem. What would be interesting would be to take the total food requirments once we have it and see how much we would have to shrink it to fit in the ark. That percentage would be what the hibernating animals would have to live on. I imagine we are looking at fractions of a percent which STILL makes the story look....well....like a story.

It is like slipping on a bannana peel but making it look like you really MEANT to fall over because you felt like break dancing. Yea....uh...thats it. It is fun to take analogies to the extreme.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by CK, posted 06-27-2006 1:46 PM CK has responded

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 Message 26 by CK, posted 06-27-2006 3:58 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 239 (326896)
06-27-2006 4:16 PM


Can we get a number?
Rather than being specific to each "kind" lets talk about averages. You'll never be able to get a "real" accurate number because we just don't know about the representative of each kind.

Take the info for a horse and cut it in half and call that the average amount of food/water for each animal. That would be ~2500 pounds of food and ~1000 gallons of water.

Now multiply that by the total number of proposed members.

~2500 x ~15000 = 37.5 million pounds of food
~1000 x ~15000 = 15 million gallons of water

What is the volume of 37.5 million pounds of hay and 15 million gallons of water?

What is the volume of the ark?

What percentage of the total food requirements for the average, non-super-awesome-hibernation-skillz creature can we ACTUALLY fit into the space allotted by "Crazy John" for food?

Under ideal hibernation conditions, how far off is the estimate?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 4:20 PM Jazzns has responded
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 Message 40 by Discreet Label, posted 06-27-2006 5:08 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 38 of 239 (326907)
06-27-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
06-27-2006 4:20 PM


Re: Can we get a number?
Ok fine. Lets give even more leverage. How about an average of 1/10 of a horse.

(11000) * .1 * 15754 = 17.33 million points of food
(4380) * .1 * 15754 = 7 million gallons of water

Using the above ideal compression of 20lbs/ft^3 for the food that is 866500 cubic feet needed for food.

Can someone help with the water calculation?

What is the volume of the ark in cubic feet?

What is the allotted space for food given by Woodmorappe?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 4:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DrJones*, posted 06-27-2006 5:05 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 41 of 239 (326918)
06-27-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by DrJones*
06-27-2006 5:05 PM


Re: Can we get a number?
Awesome. So lets work with a figure of ~1.8 million cubic feet of supplies.

Does anyone know the volume of the ark?

Does anyone know the volume that Woodmorappe has dog earred for supplies?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by DrJones*, posted 06-27-2006 5:05 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

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 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-27-2006 5:50 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2250 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 116 of 239 (327486)
06-29-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Omnivorous
06-29-2006 12:04 PM


Re: Like a fish out of water
That was after, you know, 4.5 GA worth of geological process happening in 1 year. If Pangea can split and the contenents be realitivly in their current position within 1 year then building a mountain is child's play. But that really is OT.

What people are forgetting regarding some of this whole, "species X couldn't survive" is that YECs can just ad hoc anything around their primary "everything was different concept". Think about it. If we are already talking about taking on a canine kind, cat kind, all with some kind of super abilities that they all lost due to subsequent devolution due to the fall then we can make up all kinds of crap.

Maybe there was only 1 fish kind that was durable enough to survive the flood that subsequently lost that durability due to the fall. Same thing for other marine creatures.

You can play the ad-hoc game with anything to make it work. Maybe the kinds were smaller then. Maybe the representative proto-cat kind was more like a house cat that after the flood super-awesome-hyper-fast-micro-in-kind-evolved into the bigger cats.

Better yet, even more on topic, plants were more nutritious back then before they micro-devolved into the crappy kind we have today. See! Now you can stuff 1.8 million cubic feet of hay into just a few thousand cubic feet of super-awesome-pre-flood-plant-food-stuff.

Horray! Self-delusional need to make the flood myth seem plausable is preserved!


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Omnivorous, posted 06-29-2006 12:04 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

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