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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 149 of 239 (346381)
09-04-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Randy
07-05-2006 9:27 AM


Re: Query about figures.
spoiled grain during the trip so some extra will need to be packed away.

I agree they would of packed away grain, with all the pitching Noah was instructed to do this alone would of easily preserved compact energy rich grain, fruits, from spoilage from humidity.

To a creationists the glaciers in the northern hemisphere temporarily froze some creatures above the surface of the earth. The flood only raining 40 days means glaciers would of started melting immediately after the flood.

The creatures in the southern hemisphere to a creationists would of survived on floating mats of vegetation: granted those that couldn't cling to these mats would of perished within the surface of the earth(fossil record of the creatures that perished within the earth).

You have no native hoofed creatures in australia and no native kangaroo fossils outside australia. The fossil record agrees that all species died within the world flood but not all perished. The lack of native hoofed creatures in australia and the fossil record itself is evidence in the natural that the flood was world encompassing disaster.

http://archives.gophercentral.com/issue_20096:33.html

In fact, it has been reported that young of year of some
species have been known to endure being frozen solid within
ice at times during the winter...and they apparently thaw
out with no problem.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF15/1513.html

Freeze tolerance is just as it sounds—insects turn into little bits of ice, then thaw in spring to fly or crawl away. To pull off this trick, insects or their larvae must remove much of the water from within their cells and keep ice organized to remain outside cell membranes. They also add sugars and alcohols to their bodies to counter the effects of freeze-drying. If ice forms inside cells or if cells become too dry, the insects die. Insects aren’t the only organisms to use this strategy to survive; trees and wood frogs survive after being mostly frozen much of the year.


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johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 154 of 239 (346455)
09-04-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by NosyNed
09-04-2006 10:45 AM


Re: Floating mats and genetics
Is this the hypothosis you want considered?

No! Its only said it rained 40 days not 365 days but agree that these eco-systems of trees, seeds, creatures would of been quite an oasis of life. But agree that some would of these floating oasis perished as the waters washed off the earth.

That separate from their size, form, eating habits etc. they were sorted onto these mats by genetics?

No! These mats floated above the flood waters, not like the creatures that perished within the surface of the earth that became the fossil record.

The reason it took 365 days before Noahs animals left the ark was the earth needed this time for the herbs and grasses to grow for the creatures of the ark to survive apart from the ark.


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johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 157 of 239 (346489)
09-04-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by nwr
09-04-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Query about figures.
sis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

If the Biblical account is correct, no animals survived on floating mats of vegetation. By proposing that Australian animals survived on floating mats, you are agreeing that the Biblical report of the flood is false.

Not at all, but your interpretation is in error. Your saying it says that every living substance which was above the surface of the earth was destroyed. This is not what the verse is implying in fact later it says the olive branch survived. This is not an error because it floated (meaning not destroyed by the earth) thus was exempt from destruction from the earth.

I agree in respect to surviving humanity it does say only Noah and his clan survived the flood.


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johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 163 of 239 (346559)
09-04-2006 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
09-04-2006 6:06 PM


Food Supply Resprouted (Fresh Water Flood)
The implication of the olive branch is that the vegetation had regenerated - i.e. there was food for the animals.

What your suggesting is not biblical but actually the opposite of what the bible conotates. The bible is quite clear that all living substances were destroyed that were upon the ground. The olive branch regeneration was from mats floating coming to rest upon the Mountains of Ararat as the fresh waters of the flood receeded.

I agree that the mineral rich sediments and the fresh waters of the Flood would of Resprouted (regenerate) the Food supply even before the Flood waters had washed off the continents to mix with the salt in the oceans.

psalm 104:9 God decreed that the waters would never again cover the entire earth.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 165 of 239 (346564)
09-04-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by obvious Child
09-04-2006 7:14 PM


Re: Query about figures.
e's a serious problem with that notion. As already calculated on this site, the release of such water through rain would have raised temperatures significantly.

Not how it works, In the natural Heat rises so what was coming back to the earth was not heated waters but waters cooled in the upper atmosphere extending thousands of miles upward and thus returning to the earth in the form of rain.

The atmosphere acts as a gigantic airconditioner, because heat rises and the bible is clear in that it rained 40 days thus the heat rose and rain returned in the form of rain, snow, for those 40 days. There was not a humidity problem because no steam problem existed during the deluge.

It then says after the rain stopped God caused a wind to blow over the earth. There would not been a wind problem after the initial tusami, which was why Noah was mocked for building a ship thousands of miles from the ocean.

He would of been sheltered from an initial tusami wave thats explains the massive fossil deposits found in Alaska and Siberia.

If the sun was blocked by the massive deluge no easterly winds could of been a problem until after the deluge stopped.

he Glaciers from a creationist point of view happened during the biblical deluge, it was winter in the northern hemisphere. The insects, fish, frogs, trees, would of been temporarily frozen as summer came to be the glaciers would of started melting in the northern hemisphere.

All these creatures (and seeds) thawing out from the ice would of multiplied rapidly after the flood waters abated. The evidence is pretty conclusive that the glaciers happened quite suddenly, to a creationists reseeding (regenerating) the earth food supply for the creatures coming forth from the Noah's ark.

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Paleontology.html

The evidence of the violence of nature combined with the stench of rotting carcasses was staggering. The ice fields containing these remains stretched for hundred of miles in every direction (Hibben, 1946). Trees and animals, layers of peat and mosses, twisted and mangled together like some giant mixer had jumbled them some 10,000 years ago, and then froze them into a solid mass. The evidence immediately suggests an enormous tidal wave which raged over the land, tumbling animals and vegetation within its mass, which was then quick-frozen (Sanderson, 1960). But the extinction is not limited to the Arctic.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 166 of 239 (346565)
09-04-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
09-04-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Food Supply Resprouted (Fresh Water Flood)
Also nonsense. The oceans covered the whole earth. It was all salt water, so nothing would grow.

Sorry it was a freshwater flood the oceans mixed after the flood waters washed off the continents. I've never seen it rain salt, hmmm.....

I think what your confusing is overspray from hurricanes winds that would of been non existant because of the sun being blocked to prevent winds from being generated.

Fresh water(mineral rich sediments) would of been a perfect medium for the regeneration of the plant life, to the restablishing of the fisheries even before the flood waters washed off the continents.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 170 of 239 (346574)
09-04-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Discreet Label
09-04-2006 10:40 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Are you even aware what steam is? (Gaseous water), and gasoes water exists at nearly every atmospheric temperature, and if you are talking a 25 C in a flooded world, there will be quite a bit of water present in the air.

Water erupting as steam is quite similar to this energy solution talking about steam in a near vacuum state will phase back to a chilled state to 46 Degrees F.

Hopefully this article will explain how your excessive steamtemps are chilled in near vacuum states (as would of existed within the upper atmosphere) to 46 Degrees F.

The creatures on the ark and the grains within Noahs arks sealed bins rooms would not of been overheated by the waters returning to the earth.

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/tech/tech_absorpchill.asp

The refrigerant used is actually water, as that is the working medium that experiences a phase change that causes the cooling affect. The second fluid that drives the process is a salt, generally lithium bromide. Heat is used to separate the two fluids; when they are brought back together in a near vacuum environment, the water experiences a phase change to remix with the salt at a very low temperature (at normal atmosphere pressure, water vaporizes at 212F; in an absorber, water vaporizes cold enough to produce 46F chilled water.)

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 180 of 239 (346638)
09-05-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by obvious Child
09-05-2006 3:14 AM


Re: Query about figures.
That occurs nowhere in Earth. So unless this was magical water using magical physics, your argument is bull.

The creationists quite rightly talk of the water canopy above coming down due to the fountains of the deep erupting primarily water and secondary ash upwards. Its not magical but normal for water vapor produced in a near vacuum to cool sufficiently with an abosorbant. Its not magical but science, you need a dust particle (absorbant) for rain to form.

And what did they eat? No top soil, salted earth. Not great growing conditions eh?

Actually the salt deposits formed during the pre-flood time was covered by the anionic cationic mineral sediments rich particles erupting out from the biblical fountains of the deep. Particles like(iron aluminum salts) only promote settling would of been maintaining of the freshwater environment for the fishes and the hydroponics happenings on these floating mats of vegetation during and after the flood.

Its these ashlike sediments erupting upward thats believed to of brought down the water canopy down mentioned in genesis. The bible is quite clear that the birds flew in the firmament between the waters below and the waters above. Until ash was spewed upward this water vapor canopy just welled upward (increasing the air pressure) which is why the pterosaurs could fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur

All your link does is argue for a quick happening Ice Age. Nothing more. Plus it has dates that contridict creation. Did you not read it?

The evolutionists don't factor in biological happenings affecting the ratio or that the elements of the earth formed before the earth was thus it has no bearing to the age of the earth.

The mineral rich sediments by its settling is what the bible is referring to when it says "the earth destroyed" all the life on the surface of the ground. This to the creationists is how the fossil record happened quite suddenly.

If it was not for the iron aluminum salts from within the fountains of the deep erupting steam upwards the sediments would not of settled as quickly and would under that senerio would of primarily washed off the continents.

Its because these sediment rich particles settled into multiple of varves that you had the perfect senerio for the earth to regenerate naturally to provide food for all the creatures that survived on the ark and on the floating mats of vegetation.

I'll agree some diffused light filtered through the rain for those 40 days but don't see how winds were a major factor during the flood.

The bible says the winds came after the flood (genesis 8:1) & and that the earth rose and settled after the 40 days expired but its the fresh water mineral springs (formed by the flood) water pressures welling upwards even up hills mentioned in psalms 104:10 provides water for rivers and lakes.

This is how all the creatures had freshwater after the flood with rain restablishing the herbs grasses (food) and recharging the aquifiers formed during the biblical deluge.

Without these waters springing upwards the creatures on the ark would of not survived upon leaving the ark. Rivers formed, Lakes formed to support all life restablishing the regeneration of the earth. It was a new earth the old one the bible says had passed away(perished). 2 peter 3:6.

psalm 104:8-10

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 185 of 239 (346664)
09-05-2006 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by NosyNed
09-04-2006 2:08 PM


Re: Floating mats and genetics
1) Are you saying that these mats floated to particular places like Australia, south america, antarctica etc. and that this floating of mats with PARTICULAR groups of animals explains the location of groups of animals that we see today. Yes or no?
Yes

2) If that is what you are saying then explain how the animals happened to be grouped the way they are. Is this because they were on one or more mats that happened to float to the specific places? Yes or No?
yes

3)If yes to both are you saying that the sorting was done based on the genetics of the animals? yes or no?
No

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 186 of 239 (346665)
09-05-2006 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by PurpleYouko
09-05-2006 10:51 AM


Re: Query about figures.
So all you now have to explain is where the excess heat from the powers supply for this process went.
Powered refrigeration of any type produces a net increase in temperature. Only the refrigerated part gets colder. the rest gets hotter, and by a larger amount too.

I agree the heat had to be vented somewhere, like a small room airconditioner venting the heat out the window.

If the heat couldn't of vent above the atmosphere the earth would of overheated from all the supersonic steamed fountains rising upwards, it would be like having a room airconditioner with no window to vent.

The excessive heat upward simply pressed open the heavens thus opening them so the heat would of vented above the atmosphere.

It says the fountains of the deep were broken up and and the windows of heaven were opened(heat rises), thus a vent for the heat to rise above the atmosphere thousands of miles upwards. genesis 7:11


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 187 of 239 (346670)
09-05-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by sidelined
09-05-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Query about figures.
How do we know that the storage bins didn't come out the bottom (gravity fed).

They would of kept using these sealed bins from the bottom opening a stop gate thus the grains themselves helped prevented humidity from entering the storage bins.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 191 of 239 (346754)
09-05-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by sidelined
09-05-2006 2:44 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Because as the humidity goes up the cells in the wood expand and bind tightly any guides that would be in place to open the gate. After binding tightly shut there is no way to open them until the humidity drops. Therefore the food would be inaccessible.Even if you manage to overcome this you are left with how to prevent the grain in contact with the wood walls from absorbing the moisture present in the wood.

Why would Noah not use brass to construct a gate, it would not rust or bind. genesis 4:22


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 197 of 239 (346818)
09-05-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by PurpleYouko
09-05-2006 12:44 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Actually, heat doesn't rise at all. Hot things tend to be less dense than cold things. Therefore hot gas and vapors are lighter than cold gas and vapors so they will float to the top. This is called convection.

I'm leaning more to launched not convection to explain the over the top happening of the fountains of the deep going over the top. I agree that they wouldn't just float over the top they would need to be launched up over the top.

Mt. St. Helens when it erupted put ash into orbit and its said it took years for it to return to the earth(launched).

Whats believed to of happened when the fountains of the deep erupted (launched) steam and particulates upward into the vacuums above the atmosphere is that it rolled back the atmosphere(windows of heaven were opened). genesis 7:11

In the article its says that they used heat to separate the absorption particle from the vaporized water molecule. In a vacuum the vaporized water molecule is not under any pressure and when it sorps to a salt particle its energy has been dissipated by the vacuum.

Water does not need to be hot just the vacuum alone can cause ice to vaporize in space. Yet given a salt particle in the articles the vacuum absorption chambers steam changes and cools to 46 degrees F.

Where did the heat go, did the vacuum absorb it away? Is this whats happening above the upper atmosphere when two separated fluids comes together in the vacuums of the upper atmosphere.

They used heat to separate the two fluids; then they brought them back together in a near vacuum environment, the water experienced a phase change to remix with the salt at a very low temperature in an absorber, water vaporizes cold enough to produce 46F chilled water.)

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/tech/tech_absorpchill.asp

How it works

One of the oldest methods to mechanically cool a space is with absorption technology. It seems unreasonable to burn a flame to produce cooling, but that is what happens inside an absorption chiller.

The refrigerant used is actually water, as that is the working medium that experiences a phase change that causes the cooling affect. The second fluid that drives the process is a salt, generally lithium bromide. Heat is used to separate the two fluids; when they are brought back together in a near vacuum environment, the water experiences a phase change to remix with the salt at a very low temperature (at normal atmosphere pressure, water vaporizes at 212F; in an absorber, water vaporizes cold enough to produce 46F chilled water.)


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 199 of 239 (346836)
09-05-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by NosyNed
09-05-2006 8:29 PM


Re: Sorting
Then how do you explain that sorting?
Re: Water Water everywhere, yet not a drop to drink!

It was a fresh water flood thus all the water that Noah saw was fresh water.

Over the ocean the salt water would of sorted apart from the fresh water over the oceans preserving the salt water fisheries during the flood.

Before the freshwaters flowed off the continents to sort with the salty oceans (it would of stratified firsts by sorting apart from the salt waters then it would of slowly mixed with the salt water).

The freshwater everywhere is that all life had water everywhere to drink except perhaps the floating mats that washed out over the salty oceans.

Noahs ark however came to rest upon the mountains of ararat so these creatures never had a problem with water.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3905 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 204 of 239 (346875)
09-05-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by NosyNed
09-05-2006 9:06 PM


Re: Sorting Genetic Evidences of the Flood
The sorting I meant to refer to is in:
Re: Floating mats and genetics (Message 189)

The genetic sorting of all Gods Creatures via the flood happening in the summertime in the southern hemisphere (genesis 7:11)in part is why no glaciation occured down under(Australia) excluding Antartica.

The reason to why the glaciation didn't ravage the southern hemisphere is enhanced in that the waters erupting from the fountains of the deep (mid-ocean ridges) happened latitudally (less temperature fluctuations) in the southern hemisphere and not Longitudally as was happening in the northern hemisphere.

The northern hemisphere excessive glaciation with the southern hemisphere not showing evidence of excessive glaciation raises the flag about glaciation. If the earth was going thru a global cooling phase why is there not more evidence in the southern hemisphere of glaciation?

The evidence for the flood based off genetic sorting in Australia is that the creatures native to Australia have no native cattle like hoofed creatures.

There is no Kangaroo fossils found in the Mt. Ararat area because the kangaroo fossils survived the flood above the surface of the earth on floating mats of debris floating over Australia.

If the creatures native to australia migrated from Mt. Ararat you should have evidence of Kangaroo fossils in all parts of the world. Where are all the fossils of the creatures genetically native to Australia in other parts of the world. This is one genetic sorting expression of creatures surviving on floating mats that are only native to australia. Why only native to Australia? Genetic sorting via floating mats? Show me the fossil evidences of creatures native to australia that are native to North America. Is there any that was able to migrate off the big continent down under?

You have the mighty Sequoia trees only native to the Western North America because they never rerooted elsewhere in the world even though the fossil coal deposits attest they grew all over the world before the world flood sorted them to become coal deposits. How is this not evidence of a world flood through genetic sorting of floating debris forming these massive coal fossil deposits?

How come all the mighty redwood trees that once grew the world wide that are impervious to fires and insects (almost indestructible) are not evident all over the world except in coal deposits?

These are just a couple of examples of how the sorting of floating mats are evidence of the genetic expressions we see all over the world. The mighty redwood surviving in California, the kangaroo in Australia. The cattle survive on Noahs ark and could not migrate to Australia because they simply could not swim the ocean but migrated to most all other parts of the world.

This is why no hoofed creatures are native to australia, is that they simply all perished in the biblical flood. It's a form of genetic sorting they simply had not the ability like kangaroo's to climb or swim onto floating trees debris to repopulate Australia with native hoofed creatures(deer, bison, cattle, horses, camels, elk, moose, etc...).

All the hoofed creatures survived aboard Noahs ark eating grain and no evidence of any hoofed creatures native to Australia!


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