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Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2184 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 211 of 298 (396811)
04-22-2007 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
04-20-2007 8:53 PM


But buzz YHWH/YAHWEH/JEHOVAH are titles just the same as Allah is, God really only has names that dipict something about him, he's not named JEHOVAH like a man is named bob, they all just discriptions of the creator

2. The proper name of your Islamic Quranic god is Allah, which means god or the god. There is only one proper name of the gods of both the Bible and the Quran and they are not one and the same.

now you are just nitpicking, arabic christians call the christian god allah, so it is the same god

I don't know where you're from, but I do know this. If you are from one of the fundamentalist totalitarian Islamic nations and you go on a preaching mission preaching Jehovah, the god of the Bible you will find yourself in serious legal trouble and likely in prison or dead. Or if you go on a preaching mission preaching the gospel of the Biblical god's son Jesus the same fate will befall you.

well duh, the same thing would happen in a christian dominated country
you make it sound like christians have some sort of worse plight than muslims do

All the alleged names cited in this link are not proper names but descriptive adjectives of the Quranic god Allah. The Bible is full of this sort of descriptive language regarding the Biblical god Jehovah also

all the names we give to the creator are discriptive, what name doesn't discribe him?
even the name "god" is a description
what is he? he is a god or the god

he has no names that arn't describing something about him, say if we named him bob that might not be true, what does the name bob discribe?
calling a guy named bob tiny would be the same thing, its a label but its not his name

The old saying goes, "iron sharpens iron." so we all acquire wisdom, knowledge and understanding as we dialog and debate on
the wonderful www.

i hope so, but i'm wondering if you arn't being a bit one sided about this, considering
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 8:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 298 (396814)
04-22-2007 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by arachnophilia
04-22-2007 2:31 AM


Arach writes:

you know very well that the ilah part of "allah" in arabic and the eloh part of "elohim" in hebrew are cognates. the same word in two different languages.

That says nothing in refutation of my statement. Elohim is not, I repeat, is not the Biblical god Jehovah's proper name. It is a descriptive word which says what Jehovah is. He is a god just as I am a man. Man and god are descriptive names of persons and deities. Zeus was the proper name of a pagan Greek god of the sky/weather et al. God is not the proper name of the pagan god Zeus any more than god is not Jehovah's proper name.

The fact that Jehovah is not considered the proper name of the Muslim god nor is in the Quran stated as such and that the god Jehovah is unacceptable in fundamentalist nations proves that Jehovah is not the Muslim god Allah's proper name. His proper name is simply Allah. That's stated over and over by Mohammed and by Islam at large. To be a Muslim one must declare that Allah is god and Mohammed is his prophet. Did you note that double usage of the word/name Allah commonly used in Islam, Arach, i.e. Allah is God? How do you explain the double usage of the word? You can't other than to admit that Allah is the proper name of the Islamic god.

Arach writes:

what makes "allah" a name is that it has been elevated to such

No. What makes Allah a name is that it was a proper name of one of the chief gods among a host of pagan gods and was indeed at one time a moon god. Thus the crescent moon of Islam. Mohammed enforced by the sword that his god Allah be supreme and worship of all other pagan gods were forbidden by him. It was the main god of his family clan. Jehovah was never one of the hundreds of pagan gods worshipped in the region before Islam.

Arach writes:

in judaism, one is not allowed to speak god's proper name. as such, in some texts it is even missing, and god is simply referred to as "elohim."

1. This was a superstition which later came after the fall of Jerusalem and exile when Israel and Judah were not in God's favor as at first. It was never intended by God to be thus or he wouldn't have had it in the original scriptures which were to be read and copied exactly as written under penalty of death curse.

2. Jehovah was not replaced by elohim due to this superstition. The word "adonai" (lord/master) became the replacement as has been carried through (contrary to scripture, imo) by most modern translators. The ASV held on to the over 6000 references to the name Jehovah in the OT. That's why I prefer it over the rest.

Exodus 20:3 clearly demonstrates what I've been trying to tell you people (ASV) where God says that he is Jehovah, their god using both the proper name of the god Jehovah and the descriptive word "elohim." to state that Jehovah is their god. This is in all the manuscripts which were used by all translators even though they chose not to translate it literally as written.

Arach writes:

also, didn't your admin incarnation ban you? what happened? (welcome back?)

1. I never banned myself. I suspended myself indefinitely, my first ever suspension in four years.

2. I made an announcemnt to that before I began posting. You must have missed it. Thanks for the welcome.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by arachnophilia, posted 04-22-2007 2:31 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by arachnophilia, posted 04-23-2007 3:28 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 178 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 213 of 298 (396845)
04-22-2007 2:28 PM


Fundamentalists
Christian fundamentalists find no problem in the limitless power and awe of God, but do not ascribe the same concessions to Islam. According to them, their God is all powerful - and who are we to tell God how many proper names he can have? To the Jews he called himself YHWH, to the Christians he called himself Christ and to the Muslims he called himself Allah, along with 99 other names.
Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 04-22-2007 2:42 PM Modulous has not yet responded
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 9:52 PM Modulous has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 214 of 298 (396847)
04-22-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Modulous
04-22-2007 2:28 PM


Jehovah is just the Creation of Man
Of course the Hebrews too had their list of the Names of G_d.

To pretend that there is some one correct name of GOD is simply silly. YHVH is imply the one that appears most often in the Tanakh and we really are clueless what it actually is. Things like Jehovah are just creations of man, labels we have assigned.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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rizal
Junior Member (Idle past 4255 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 04-19-2007


Message 215 of 298 (396878)
04-23-2007 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Modulous
04-22-2007 5:34 AM


Thanks Arach for your explanation:

but it's generally rendered "yahweh" and means "he who exists."
when moshe asks god his name, he says אהיה אשר אהיה, ahayah asher ahayah. "i am that i am," or possibly "i will be what i will be." god's name is derived from the verb in that sentance.

Thanks Modulous, I agree with you for below points:

1st
This means 'I am that I am' or something approaching it. The Muslims state that one of the names for God is 'I am that I am' - or something approaching it. They don't use English though - they use Arabic

2nd
Muslims state that these are the names for the deity they believe in

Buzsaw, I came from free nation, I am a Muslim and i was taught that The God that I worshipped as same as The God of Adam, Noah & Abraham, and I believed for prophecy of Joseph, Moses and Jesus (all muslims believed for 25 prophets since Adam until Muhammad).

As a Muslim beside Qur'an I must believe that Zabur (Psalm), Torah and Gospel were also revealed by the only and the same God.

Salam

Edited by rizal, : Sorry I just add ":" as I didnt know how to make quotation


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Modulous, posted 04-22-2007 5:34 AM Modulous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:04 PM rizal has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 216 of 298 (396884)
04-23-2007 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Buzsaw
04-22-2007 8:57 AM


Elohim is not, I repeat, is not the Biblical god Jehovah's proper name

through the proper name's lack of use, it could concievable become one. i demonstrate how. if 90% of christians today thing that god's name is "God," who are you and i to disagree with the technicalities?

It is a descriptive word which says what Jehovah is.

"jehovah" is not god's name. you know that. i know you know that. i keep telling you that. i really wish you'd try to take the time to understand why it's wrong. it's not the j, it's the fact that it's the combination of a word and a name.

and the NAME "yahweh" is a descriptive title as well. it has meaning. all names in hebrew have meanings.

Allah is God? How do you explain the double usage of the word? You can't other than to admit that Allah is the proper name of the Islamic god.

it has become a proper name, yes. i never said otherwise.

No. What makes Allah a name is that it was a proper name of one of the chief gods among a host of pagan gods and was indeed at one time a moon god.

you keep trying to make this point. you keep getting shot down. "elohim" is a proper name in other cultures. "el" is a proper name in other cultures -- ones OLDER than judaism. how is "allah" different? especially considering that it's the same word.

Thus the crescent moon of Islam.

you have been continually disproven on this point, too. the crescent moon (AND star) is the symbol of the ottoman empire, NOT islam.

Jehovah was never one of the hundreds of pagan gods worshipped in the region before Islam.

yahueh? sure he is. still is today. the samaritans worship him, along with a pantheon.

1. This was a superstition which later came after the fall of Jerusalem and exile when Israel and Judah were not in God's favor as at first.

no, this tradition is present in the e document, which was finished BEFORE exile. sorry, but the fact the bible is an old text actually hurts your point here.

2. Jehovah was not replaced by elohim due to this superstition. The word "adonai" (lord/master) became the replacement

not a replacement. nothing is being replaced. the J document contains references to "yahueh elohim" and the E simply to "elohim." "yahueh" has not been replaced, simply subtracted. then through cultural revision, "elohim" becomes god's effective name. especially since in english we regard "LORD" (the replacement for the name) as the title.

it's complex and goes across languages, but so does everything else. even islam.

1. I never banned myself. I suspended myself indefinitely,

what's the difference?

You must have missed it.

been busy


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2007 8:57 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:19 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 298 (397015)
04-23-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Modulous
04-22-2007 2:28 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
Modulous, it's obvious you either choose to ignore that facts or you just don't get it that a description of a god or person doesn't make that another proper name. We and the gods have only one proper name. We have many descriptions, all of us and the gods as well. The prophet/messiah Mohammed's god Allah inspired him to kill, kill, and kill until Islam becomes the world religion. The god of the prophet/messiah Jesus's god Jehovah inspired him to love, love, love, save, save, save and to kill nobody. Can't you see that something's wrong with that picture? How can the one and same god inspire the two prophet/messiahs to do the opposite? How also can the one and same god have two messiahs, both who claim to be the real messiah and the one's followers kill the followers of the other et al, et al?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Modulous, posted 04-22-2007 2:28 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 04-23-2007 10:14 PM Buzsaw has responded
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 298 (397019)
04-23-2007 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by rizal
04-23-2007 2:15 AM


Rizal, what say you to my last message? How can your god Allah be inspiring your prophet and his followers to kill and persecute the followers of Jehovah's messiah when Jehovah does the opposite, ispiring Jesus and his desciples to kill nobody, no not even those who persecute them?

Why, Rizal, is preaching of Jehovah and Jesus in most fundy Muslim nations forbidden openly? How can one and the same god be against it/himself? You people are just not making a lot of sense.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by rizal, posted 04-23-2007 2:15 AM rizal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ReverendDG, posted 04-23-2007 10:28 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 298 (397020)
04-23-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 9:52 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
The prophet/messiah Mohammed's god Allah inspired him to kill, kill, and kill until Islam becomes the world religion. The god of the prophet/messiah Jesus's god Jehovah inspired him to love, love, love, save, save, save and to kill nobody.

Buz that is a bunch of Bullshit, even for you. Christianity was spread by the sword. Plus the Bible is filled with that God telling his followers to kill folk.

The fact is, Jehovah is NOT a proper name for GOD it is a made up word, and it is only the Christian Cult of Ignorance that makes such claims. Even YHWH is simply descriptive and not a proper name and only one of MANY such descriptive names.

It's time you began posting something that is at least close to the truth.

How can the one and same god inspire the two prophet/messiahs to do the opposite?

Simple, that is simply a false statement.

Mohammad is not a Messiah. Your constant repetition of false assertions do not make them true.

How also can the one and same god have two messiahs, both who claim to be the real messiah and the one's followers kill the followers of the other et al, et al?

That too is simple. The religion that claims a Messiah simply killed off as many as possible when it encountered different faiths. Christianity has ALWAYS simply killed off the other theists while Islam has historically been accepting.

Again, Islam does not claim a messiah. You really need to stop posting just plain falsehoods.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 9:52 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:56 PM jar has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 298 (397021)
04-23-2007 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by arachnophilia
04-23-2007 3:28 AM


Arach writes:

what's the difference?

Banning is not suspension. To ban is intended to forbid return. To suspend is just that, to suspend for a period of time, in my case indefinitely. Look the words up.

LOL. You no way have made sense of your argument about Jehovah and the mainline translator/scholars agree. They have enough sense to understand that the English language added the Js and the Vs et al. You're the odd one out on that count.

To keep repeating your falacies does not make them any more true and that's all you ever do on these counts. Believe what you want. I can't help you if you choose to believe falsehoods.

LOL also on the moon god thing. Nobody has ever empirically refuted that Allah was once a pagan moon god in the region. Certainly he wasn't the only god to these people for eons. They worshipped over two hundred including him. Not so in the Bible with the Jews so far as ligitimate. Jehovah was to be their one and only god ever.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by arachnophilia, posted 04-23-2007 3:28 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2184 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 221 of 298 (397024)
04-23-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:04 PM


Rizal, what say you to my last message? How can your god Allah be inspiring your prophet and his followers to kill and persecute the followers of Jehovah's messiah when Jehovah does the opposite, ispiring Jesus and his desciples to kill nobody, no not even those who persecute them?

where is god saying this buz? and you know that islam doesn't consider jesus the messiah

Why, Rizal, is preaching of Jehovah and Jesus in most fundy Muslim nations forbidden openly? How can one and the same god be against it/himself? You people are just not making a lot of sense.

buz go read what people believe please, they consider both the NT and OT corrupt, why would you teach something that you consider a lie?
the jews did the same thing, they would kill anyone who led the people from the path they believed was the right one, they considered many christians minim for doing so

the only problem you seem to have is the fact that they don't consider jesus anything more than a prophet. god is still god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:04 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2184 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 222 of 298 (397027)
04-23-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:19 PM


LOL. You no way have made sense of your argument about Jehovah and the mainline translator/scholars agree. They have enough sense to understand that the English language added the Js and the Vs et al. You're the odd one out on that count.

well go learn some language history buzz, the "J" sound is a conversion of the "Y" sound in german, english is a distent relative of german, but the J sound is borrowed

To keep repeating your falacies does not make them any more true and that's all you ever do on these counts. Believe what you want. I can't help you if you choose to believe falsehoods.

wow thats amazing! your blind willful ignorence about the history of the bible is just astounding, hebrew scholars both conservative and liberal, conservative christian scholars and liberal ones agree that the origins of the name jehovah is a corruption of YHWH and adonai.

LOL also on the moon god thing. Nobody has ever empirically refuted that Allah was once a pagan moon god in the region. Certainly he wasn't the only god to these people for eons. They worshipped over two hundred including him. Not so in the Bible with the Jews so far as ligitimate. Jehovah was to be their one and only god ever.

allah is a title, it was the title for sin, until islam took over, and they worship YHWH under the name allah
for fucks sake buz christians in those countries call god allah.

i mean come on what do you want for empirical evidence? i mean come on you are dictating someone elses beliefs, the fact is that allah may have been used for a title for Sin the moon god is irrelevent now

it would be like someone saying your beliefs are invalid because at one point yahweh was storm god that people worshiped along side el, and tiamat
the fact is they don't worship the moon god, they worship the jewish and christan god
the whole allah=moon god at one point is a red herring and a weak argument

Not so in the Bible with the Jews so far as ligitimate. Jehovah was to be their one and only god ever.

thats crap and you know it! this is complete and utter BS!
do you even read the bible? why did god keep having to punish israel? oh because they would stop worshiping him and start worshiping other gods maybe?
this is rather silly don't you think?
The fact is archaeologists have found that the jews worshiped the goddess Asherah, who was the queen of heaven, wife of yahweh

in fact Jeremiah condemns it
they have found jars with her image,statues, and poles used for her worship
revisionism has led to the abusurd belief that yahweh was the only god, but they worshiped ba'al and el as well


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:19 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 298 (397028)
04-23-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by jar
04-23-2007 10:14 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
jar writes:

Buz that is a bunch of Bullshit, even for you. Christianity was spread by the sword. Plus the Bible is filled with that God telling his followers to kill folk.

Jar, we've been over this adnausium and you know the facts. Nowhere in the New Testament has Jesus or his apostles killed or persecuted anyone including their enemies. The popes and bishops of Vatican City were not santioned by God, Jesus or the apostles to do the killing they did. That is not NT Christianity whether they claimed to be Christian or not. Claiming does not make them Christian when they do the opposite of what Christianity stands for.

As I've documented over and over, the only one's God ever allowed to kill was over the land of Israel which God chose to be his land for his people. Only the Jews were instructed to kill and possess the land. The only other people God motivated to kill were nations who were to punish his people Israel when they disobeyed him and worshipped other gods et al. That was exclusively the only killing God sanctioned. God did not sanction anyone in the New Testament age to kill. Jesus advised his followers that they would be the ones persecuted and that it was given to them to suffer for his sake.

jar writes:

Simple, that is simply a false statement.

Are you going to show your ignorance by telling the www that the prophet Mohammed and his close desciples killed nobody and advocated no killing? And you chide me for falsehoods? You have no shame, as usual, Jar.

jar writes:

Mohammad is not a Messiah. Your constant repetition of false assertions do not make them true.

Islam teaches that when Jesus returns to earth he will become a follower of Mohammed and of Islam. This allegedly makes Mohammed greater than Jesus. Islam denies Jesus is the son of God. The fact that the preaching of Jesus and his gospel is forbidden in Islamic fundy nations proves that Mohammed is greater than he to them. You don't become a Muslim by believing or saying Jesus is Allah's prophet. To do so would likely get you in deep dodo. Only Mohammed is to be declared his prophet. That is required of all Muslims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 04-23-2007 10:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2007 10:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 224 of 298 (397029)
04-23-2007 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:56 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
Islam teaches that when Jesus returns to earth he will become a follower of Mohammed and of Islam. This allegedly makes Mohammed greater than Jesus. Islam denies Jesus is the son of God. The fact that the preaching of Jesus and his gospel is forbidden in Islamic fundy nations proves that Mohammed is greater than he to them. You don't become a Muslim by believing or saying Jesus is Allah's prophet. To do so would likely get you in deep dodo. Only Mohammed is to be declared his prophet. That is required of all Muslims

None of this means that the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) is a/the messiah.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 225 of 298 (397030)
04-23-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:56 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
Are you going to show your ignorance by telling the www that the prophet Mohammed and his close desciples killed nobody and advocated no killing? And you chide me for falsehoods? You have no shame, as usual, Jar.

LOL

Of course that is not what I have EVER said.

What I have said is that historically, Christianity was spread by the sword and that historically, Islam has been more tolerant of other religions than Christianity.

As I've documented over and over, the only one's God ever allowed to kill was over the land of Israel which God chose to be his land for his people.

Yes Buz, the GOD of the Bible, of Christianity, sanctioned killing, often for something as minor as land and not even belief.

Islam teaches that when Jesus returns to earth he will become a follower of Mohammed and of Islam. This allegedly makes Mohammed greater than Jesus. Islam denies Jesus is the son of God. The fact that the preaching of Jesus and his gospel is forbidden in Islamic fundy nations proves that Mohammed is greater than he to them. You don't become a Muslim by believing or saying Jesus is Allah's prophet. To do so would likely get you in deep dodo. Only Mohammed is to be declared his prophet. That is required of all Muslims.

Still simply more of your bullshit Buz. Islam DOES say that Jesus is Allah's Prophet. Don't you ever get tired of posting falsehoods?

And what does ANY of that have to do with the fact that Jehovah is just a human made up word and that YHWH is a descriptive phrase meaning and not a proper name.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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