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Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 226 of 298 (397034)
04-23-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:19 PM


Banning is not suspension. To ban is intended to forbid return. To suspend is just that, to suspend for a period of time, in my case indefinitely.
that depends on what you mean by "indefinitely." perhaps you mean to say "the period of suspensions was not defined [and to be determined at a later point of time]." i don't know about most people, but i generally take "indefinitely" to mean "forever." in which case, it would be forbidding someone from returning.
LOL. You no way have made sense of your argument about Jehovah and the mainline translator/scholars agree. They have enough sense to understand that the English language added the Js and the Vs et al. You're the odd one out on that count.
you're still not getting it. it's not the consonants. those are relatively routine transformations -- not particularly accurate to the language, but routine nonetheless. rather it's the vowels. the vowels are from another word, and create an extra syllable that the original word lacks.
and yes, mainstream scholars agree. they agree that "jehovah" is an inaccurate name, and it has since fallen out of academic use in favor of "yahweh."
To keep repeating your falacies does not make them any more true and that's all you ever do on these counts.
buzsaw, you're starting to sound like randman again, acusing your opponents of your own shortcomings, in this especially ironic fashion.
Believe what you want. I can't help you if you choose to believe falsehoods.
on the contrary, i am trying to help you, because you believe a falsehood. and whatever i do, i cannot seem to correct your belief. no logic and no evidence and no linguistic expertise will ever sway you. you are dead-set on calling god by the wrong name.
how well can you really say you know god, if you can't even spell his name right?
LOL also on the moon god thing. Nobody has ever empirically refuted that Allah was once a pagan moon god in the region.
what a short memory you must have! why you had a a whole thread on this topic, in which your every point was shot down at every turn.
Certainly he wasn't the only god to these people for eons.
neither was yahweh the only god that abraham knew before he left ur. nor was yahweh the only god that moses knew before the burning bush spoke to him.
They worshipped over two hundred including him. Not so in the Bible with the Jews so far as ligitimate. Jehovah was to be their one and only god ever.
i think you're reading a different bible than i am, again, buz. the bible i have continually has the israelites setting up idols and worshipping foreign gods and even building temples to foreign gods. what book are you reading?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 227 of 298 (397038)
04-24-2007 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 9:52 PM


Re: Fundamentalists
Modulous, it's obvious you either choose to ignore that facts or you just don't get it that a description of a god or person doesn't make that another proper name.
Well of course it doesn't. Whoever said it did? However - if I say, my imaginary friend is called 'WalksWithRainbows' and 'DancesOnStars' - are you trying to tell me that my imaginary friend doesn't have two proper names?
We and the gods have only one proper name.
There you go again, limiting the power and majesty of the divine. Maybe your puny god only has one proper name, but I don't think you get to dictate how many proper names other people's gods have.
Incidentally - if I translate my name from Eastern European into English I get another proper name for myself. So I have at least two proper names.
The prophet/messiah Mohammed's god Allah inspired him to kill, kill, and kill until Islam becomes the world religion. The god of the prophet/messiah Jesus's god Jehovah inspired him to love, love, love, save, save, save and to kill nobody. Can't you see that something's wrong with that picture?
Yes - you think the God of the Jews can be the God of Mercy and Love.
Still - both you and Islam believes their god is a god of Mercy and Love. I accept it when Christians say that, and I accept it when Muslims say it - despite the obvious paradoxes.
How also can the one and same god have two messiahs, both who claim to be the real messiah and the one's followers kill the followers of the other et al, et al?
I don't know. Islam has only one Messiah character in its plotline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 9:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 3:41 AM Modulous has replied

  
rizal
Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 04-19-2007


Message 228 of 298 (397041)
04-24-2007 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Buzsaw
04-23-2007 10:04 PM


Buzsaw, Allah never inspiring us to kill each other.
In my country Islam coming earlier than Christian, it's around 1300 AD arrived via overseas merchants from India and China (87% of people now are muslims and became the world's largest muslim country).
Christian coming to my country araound 400 years later by European colonists and missionaries, after 350 years colonized only 6% of people converted to be christians until now.
So it's not true that Islam spread by killing people (in my country by merchants), and also it's not true that christian spread by love (in my country by 350 years colonized), but that's only history, no vengeance and no hatred.
In Islam all prophets are important, no one more important than the other since they have the same mission to be the "messenger of God", but in Islam Allah gave the very special title to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) as "ulul azmi" or "the resolute".
Salaam

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2007 10:04 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
rizal
Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 04-19-2007


Message 229 of 298 (397231)
04-25-2007 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Modulous
04-24-2007 2:26 AM


Re: Fundamentalists
The God of the Jews, Christian and Islam is the same God, He is the God of Mercy and Love, He never inspiring His prophets to kill.
Human and Satan are the terrible creatures who inspiring us to kill each other:
the Crusades are an important early part of the story of European expansion and colonialism. They mark the first time Western Christendom undertook a military initiative far from home, the first time significant numbers left to carry their culture and religion abroad
the First Crusade became an excuse to unleash savage attacks in the name of Christianity on Jewish communities along the Rhine
The siege of Jerusalem culminated in a bloody and destructive Christian victory in July 1099, in which many of the inhabitants were massacred.
...numerous Muslim armies, allied under Saladin's command, were ready to move against the Crusaders. In 1187 he invaded the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem, defeated the Christians at Hittin in Galilee (July 4), and captured Jerusalem the following October. In 1189 the nations of western Europe launched the Third Crusade to win back the holy city.
Despite Saladin's relentless military and diplomatic efforts a Christian land and naval blockade forced the surrender of the Palestinian stronghold of Acre (now ”Akko) in 1191, but the Crusaders failed to follow up this victory in their quest for Jerusalem. In 1192 Saladin concluded an armistice agreement with King Richard I of England that allowed the Crusaders to reconstitute their kingdom along the Palestinian-Syrian coast but left Jerusalem in Muslim hands.
(taken from: Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2007. Microsoft Corporation)
Finally the fatal Crusades became the origin of misunderstanding between Christians, Jews and Muslims until now.
Please don't blame it to the God...
Salam
Edited by rizal, : adding "Jews"
Edited by rizal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Modulous, posted 04-24-2007 2:26 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2007 5:07 AM rizal has replied
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2007 9:09 PM rizal has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 230 of 298 (397236)
04-25-2007 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by rizal
04-25-2007 3:41 AM


Re: Fundamentalists
I'm not blaming anything on any god. If God is a god of mercy then he has been severely misrepresented by his representatives. However that doesn't change what he is. My point being that Christianity believes the same god as Islam - and that both have God saying things which we consider barbaric in today's world. Either Christianity isn't worshipping the Christian God (according to Buz) or the criteria for making the decision that Buz came up with is erroneous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 3:41 AM rizal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 5:51 AM Modulous has replied

  
rizal
Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 04-19-2007


Message 231 of 298 (397238)
04-25-2007 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Modulous
04-25-2007 5:07 AM


Re: Fundamentalists
In my opinion God's laws couldn't consider as "barbaric" laws, When human though that their laws better than God's laws then destruction begin.
Do the Christians following the God's laws as stated in the Old Testament? I don't think so...
Do the muslims following the God's laws (as stated in Old testament too)? Some YES, some NO... (coz some people said that God's laws considered as barbaric laws)
I believed that Christians God is the same with Jews and Muslims God since all these 3 religions brings by descendant of Abraham but I believed that Jesus is not son or incarnation of God, so Islam God will not the same with Christians if Christians believed that Jesus is (Incarnation of) God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2007 5:07 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by AdminPD, posted 04-25-2007 6:12 AM rizal has replied
 Message 234 by jar, posted 04-25-2007 8:25 AM rizal has replied
 Message 235 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2007 9:19 AM rizal has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 232 of 298 (397240)
04-25-2007 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by rizal
04-25-2007 5:51 AM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome rizal,
Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure.
As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior. Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Abide by the Forum Guidelines and you will be a welcome addition.
In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.
Please direct any questions or comments you may have to the Moderation Thread.
Again, welcome and fruitful debating. Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate

Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 5:51 AM rizal has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    rizal
    Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
    Posts: 11
    Joined: 04-19-2007


    Message 233 of 298 (397244)
    04-25-2007 7:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 232 by AdminPD
    04-25-2007 6:12 AM


    Re: Welcome to EvC
    Again, welcome and fruitful debating.
    Thanks, I've read Forum Guidelines and Style Guides

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by AdminPD, posted 04-25-2007 6:12 AM AdminPD has not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 384 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 234 of 298 (397254)
    04-25-2007 8:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by rizal
    04-25-2007 5:51 AM


    Heading back towards the topic.
    In my opinion God's laws couldn't consider as "barbaric" laws,
    Many folk also hold that opinion, however if the Old Testament is considered as literally true, then it is hard to think of some other word to describe some of the Laws than Barbaric.
    But please remember that Buz and others simply use that issue to try to change the focus of the discussion away from the topic.
    Most folk here realize, as you do, that all of the Abrahamic religions worship the same God, no matter which of the many descriptive titles is used.
    We're glad you joined us and look forward to learning from you in the future.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 5:51 AM rizal has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Modulous
    Member
    Posts: 7799
    From: Manchester, UK
    Joined: 05-01-2005


    Message 235 of 298 (397268)
    04-25-2007 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by rizal
    04-25-2007 5:51 AM


    Re: Fundamentalists
    In my opinion God's laws couldn't consider as "barbaric" laws
    Assuming God is not barbaric I agree. I never said the opposite. I said the things men have written about God have God commanding barbaric acts where barbaric is compared with today's standards (genocide, slavery, rape etc).
    I believed that Christians God is the same with Jews and Muslims God since all these 3 religions brings by descendant of Abraham but I believed that Jesus is not son or incarnation of God, so Islam God will not the same with Christians if Christians believed that Jesus is (Incarnation of) God.
    Islam and Christianity are offshoots of Judaism - and they essentially worship the same god - I've never claimed otherwise. They simply differ on some of the specifics.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 5:51 AM rizal has not replied

      
    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 236 of 298 (397414)
    04-25-2007 9:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 229 by rizal
    04-25-2007 3:41 AM


    Re: Fundamentalists
    rizal writes:
    Human and Satan are the terrible creatures who inspiring us to kill each other:
    Rizal, are you saying that Mohammed's humanity and inspiration of Satan are what inspired him (abe: to order) his men to behead around 600 Jewish men in one day in a small village and take the women and children into slavery after the town surrendered, Mohammed keeping one of the hapless women to add to his harem of wifes? Or was it Allah, Mohammed's god who inspired him to do this bloody massacre on these who had surrendered? Certainly it could not have been the father god of Jesus, i.e. Jehovah who inspired Jesus and his desciples to suffer themselves and do violence to nobody, no not even their enemies who eventually killed them all.
    (note)I'm not intending to draw this topic off but it is necessary to show the difference in the gods of the New Testament and the Koran and their prophets, it is necessary to document that Mohammed was a violent killer while Jesus was the opposite, totally non-violent.
    massacre link writes:
    At the Battle of the Trench in 627 AD, the last Jewish tribe in Medina, the Banu Qurayza had been neutral. (Banu means 'sons of'). On the day the Battle finished, Muhammad turned against them. After a siege they surrendered. Muhammad appointed Sa'd ibn Mu'adh, who had been wounded in the battle, as their judge. He gave the judgement recorded as above in the Islamic sources - a judgement which Muhammad said Allah approved of.
    The next day, at least 600 Jewish men were beheaded in public on the edge of trenches and their bodies thrown in. The women and children were sold. Muhammad took one of the women - Rayhana, newly widowed, as a concubine.
    The Qu'ran mentions this event in Sura 33:25-27
    http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mhmd.htm
    Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 3:41 AM rizal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 237 by rizal, posted 04-25-2007 11:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied
     Message 238 by rizal, posted 04-26-2007 12:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied
     Message 239 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2007 2:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    rizal
    Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
    Posts: 11
    Joined: 04-19-2007


    Message 237 of 298 (397449)
    04-25-2007 11:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
    04-25-2007 9:09 PM


    Re: Fundamentalists
    The Qu'ran mentions this event in Sura 33:25-27
    Buz, if we try to find the truth we must look something from the begining until the end as one, not just part of them. you may visit this link:
    quran.myquran.org is Expired or Suspended.?
    Then chose and read Sura 33 from the verse 1 - 27 to see the background of event.
    And below additional information to open your eyes, that Meccans (unbelievers) who besieged Medina and nobody surrender to anybody:
    He promulgated a charter that specified the rights and relationships of the Muslims, Jews, and other groups of the city (Medina). The Meccans, meanwhile, persisted in their hostility, demanding the extradition of Muhammad and his Meccan followers. They were supported in Medina by a group, referred to in the Qur'an as the Hypocrites, who had submitted to Islam but were secretly working against it. This group in turn was aided by the three Jewish tribes that were residing in Medina.
    ...In 624, the first major battle occurred, in which the Muslims, despite their inferiority in numbers and weapons, soundly defeated the Meccans. In the next major battle, the following year, the Meccans had the advantage but were unable to achieve a decisive victory. A Meccan army of 10,000 besieged Medina in 627 but failed to take the city. Muhammad meanwhile eliminated his enemies within Medina. After each of the first two battles he expelled a Jewish tribe, and after the third major battle he had the males of the remaining tribe massacred for collaborating with his opponents.
    In 630, the Meccans, unable to conquer Medina and crippled by the severing of their trade routes, finally submitted peacefully to Muhammad, who treated the city generously, declaring a general amnesty. Tribal delegations arrived from throughout Arabia, and their tribes were soon converted to Islam. Muhammad, now the most powerful leader in Arabia, enforced the principles of Islam and established the foundation of the Islamic empire. He ordered the destruction of the idols in the Kaaba, the traditional place of pilgrimage in Mecca, which then became the holiest shrine of Islam. He granted Jews and Christians religious autonomy as “peoples of the Book,”...
    (taken from Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2007. Microsoft Corporation)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2007 9:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    rizal
    Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
    Posts: 11
    Joined: 04-19-2007


    Message 238 of 298 (397455)
    04-26-2007 12:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
    04-25-2007 9:09 PM


    Re: Fundamentalists
    Rizal, are you saying that Mohammed's humanity and inspiration of Satan are what inspired him (abe: to order) his men to behead around 600 Jewish men in one day in a small village and take the women and children into slavery after the town surrendered
    You said that, not me!
    If you already read the link and you read an additional information that i took from Encarta in my previous post, I could conclude:
    Banu Qurayza inspired by satan to provoke the hypocrites groups against the prophet, they deserve to be punished!
    The same thing happened in Crusades, there is someone inspired by satan to provoke europeans leader to invade jerussalem and finally failed, you knew that!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2007 9:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    Modulous
    Member
    Posts: 7799
    From: Manchester, UK
    Joined: 05-01-2005


    Message 239 of 298 (397464)
    04-26-2007 2:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
    04-25-2007 9:09 PM


    Re: Fundamentalists
    Certainly it could not have been the father god of Jesus, i.e. Jehovah who inspired Jesus and his desciples to suffer themselves and do violence to nobody, no not even their enemies who eventually killed them all.
    Wait: Are you saying the father god of Jesus wouldn't order the death of a few hundred men? He's not the kind of guy who might say, destroy all life on earth but a select few? He's not the kind of guy that would say order an army of believers to go to war against unbelievers with assurances that he would be on their side, and would turn the battle in their favour?
    This father-Jesus god is an interesting god. Is there a holy book that describes him? Unfortunately there is another book, called the Holy Bible in which there is a Jesus character. He worshipped this god, who was his father - and he said that god was merciful - even though said god had personally committed genocide, commanded others to rape and pillage and developed a barbaric legal system in which minor crimes were punished in absurdly disproportionate manner.
    It is this latter god, who is essentially the same god as the Muslim god, though they do have some differences. Those differences are nothing compared with the change in character from the Old to the New testament.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 04-25-2007 9:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    rizal
    Junior Member (Idle past 6171 days)
    Posts: 11
    Joined: 04-19-2007


    Message 240 of 298 (397467)
    04-26-2007 6:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by jar
    04-25-2007 8:25 AM


    Re: Heading back towards the topic.
    Many folk also hold that opinion, however if the Old Testament is considered as literally true, then it is hard to think of some other word to describe some of the Laws than Barbaric.
    Yes, I've ever see in the movie for the simple case; whenever pagan romans woman look at the circumcised Jews's flesh, then she said it's "barbaric", for the romans pagan it's okay, but if we worshipped Abraham's God it's really improper thinking to state it as "barbaric".
    Genesis 17:9-14 (NIV)© 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
    9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner”those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
    Salaam

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by jar, posted 04-25-2007 8:25 AM jar has not replied

      
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