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Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 298 (397982)
04-28-2007 6:51 PM


As I understand the Koran, Mohammed recognizes both the OT and the NT as holy books and regards both Jesus and Mohammed as prophets of Allah. According to the Biblical NT, no scripture in it advocates or sanctions violence. Neither of the alleged prophets of Allah are of the Old Testament era/dispensation.
Problem. Mohammed advocates violent expansion of Islam whereas Jesus advocates nonviolent expansion of Christianity. How does this square with Allah who inspires Mohammed and the Biblical god Jehovah inspiring Jesus to advocate total nonviolence?
I rest my case here. We could argue this till the cows come home and I've put all the time into this futile debate that I can afford. To go into it further would lead too far off topic. I've shown the problems with the notion that the gods of the Koran and of the New Testament are one and the same. The preaching and even the possession of the New Testament, Jesus and the gospels is strictly forbidden in most totalitarian Muslam fundamentalist nations. This supports my position that these religions, their prophets and their gods are diametrically opposed and not one and the same.
Each will have to make up their own minds considering the evidence.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-28-2007 7:24 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 243 by Modulous, posted 04-29-2007 4:59 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6146 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 242 of 298 (397986)
04-28-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
04-28-2007 6:51 PM


According to the Biblical NT, no scripture in it advocates or sanctions violence. Neither of the alleged prophets of Allah are of the Old Testament era/dispensation.
But the old testament does when the followers of YHWH kick the Caananites out of Caanan. So do we throw out the OT's policies for the NT's? Yes? Good; then we can stop pretending that the worldwide flood was literal.
The preaching and even the possession of the New Testament, Jesus and the gospels is strictly forbidden in most totalitarian Muslam fundamentalist nations. This supports my position that these religions, their prophets and their gods are diametrically opposed and not one and the same.
So Allah's the bad guy because some of his followers are so down on Christanity? Many Christians in this country would like nothing better than to burn nonbelievers and even minorities at the stake. So does that make YHWH a villain?
Oh, and please don't say that the above-mentioned Christians misrepresent Christianity, unless you'll agree with the many American Muslims that fundamentalist Islam nations with such bans misrepresent their faith.

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2007 6:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 2:41 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 243 of 298 (398072)
04-29-2007 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
04-28-2007 6:51 PM


Neither of the alleged prophets of Allah are of the Old Testament era/dispensation.
Adam is a prophet of Islam.
Noah is a prophet of Islam.
Moses is a prophet of Islam.
Abraham is. As is Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Aaron, Solomon etc etc.
Indeed - basically every prophet in the Old Testament is a prophet of Islam.
Problem. Mohammed advocates violent expansion of Islam whereas Jesus advocates nonviolent expansion of Christianity. How does this square with Allah who inspires Mohammed and the Biblical god Jehovah inspiring Jesus to advocate total nonviolence?
The Old Testament was big on expansion by violence. Indeed, the two philosophies are so similar many of Mohammed's contemporaries thought he was preaching the Old Testament!
I've shown the problems with the notion that the gods of the Koran and of the New Testament are one and the same.
They are both modifications of the god of Judaism. They are different modifications of it, but modifications nevertheless. That means they have different properties and characteristics. However, that does not mean the Jewish god is a different god to the Christian one and it does not mean that the Islamic God is different than the Jewish one.
Each will have to make up their own minds considering the evidence.
Either Christianity's god is not the God of Judaism.
Or
The Islamic god is the god of Judaism.
If you wish to concede the first, I'm happy to say that under those rules Allah is not the same deity as Yahweh. However, if you wish to keep Christianity as worshipping the god Yahweh, then under those same rules we have to also include Islam in Yahweh worshipping.
Otherwise you are special pleading for your choice of deity. As someone who believes in none of the deities listed, I have no need to special plead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2007 6:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2007 10:15 PM Modulous has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 298 (398170)
04-29-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2007 7:24 PM


Obviously you don't understand the difference between the dispensational NT and the OT. Until you get a handle on that, you'll never understand why no violence is advocated as per the NT.
You're like Mohammed. He did'nt understand that either. He applied what Jehovah assigned specifically to the Jews for a certain promised land and time frame to his NT Allah/Islam era religion. Not only that but he applied it to to the entire planet until the planet is conquered for his god Allah whereas the OT was restrictive to one nation and one small area, i.e. Israel. .

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-28-2007 7:24 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-29-2007 2:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6146 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 245 of 298 (398174)
04-29-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 2:41 PM


How is that okay?
Explain how one instance of genocide implies that you're not supposed to do it again? I'm sorry, but why would God promise his followers a land that was already inhabited? That's just plain wrong, did God just say 'oh, by the way, this genocide thing? Let's not do this anymore?'

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 2:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 10:55 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 298 (398238)
04-29-2007 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by One_Charred_Wing
04-29-2007 2:56 PM


Re: How is that okay?
The bottom line is which god is the true god, the NT violent Allah one or the NT nonviolent Jehohah one? Imo the fact that the Allah one bungled up what the Jehovah one did by applyting to all the world for all time what the Jehovah god applied only to one tiny land for one period of history indicates that it was the Allah one which counterfeited the real god's plan which was to usher in a period of salvation and grace until the time appointed for messiah Jesus to take over in Israel (now regathered as per prophecy) for the kingdom of god on earth long prophesied in both OT and NT.
Jehovah is the true god since his program is on tract as per the prophecies of both OT and NT. The Allah god has no record of fulfilled prophecy except that his followers were to kill, kill, kill until all competitive religions and nations are subdued under Islam. True Biblical Christianity grows by preaching the gospel alone minus all violence. Islam must use/threaten violence to grow and use/threaten more violence to keep Muslims from converting back out. Converting out of Islam is mandated death as per Mohammed and his desciples in the Koran, the Sunnahs and the Haddith.
If Jehovah be the true god, he will do what he will the the promised land and nobody will stop him. Thus Israel wins all their wars regardless of the odds and as per prophecy.
When Armageddon begins to ensue, Israel will be invaded and partly occupied again for a very short time but Jesus comes and saves the day for his messianic kingdom when this happens as I understand the prophecies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-29-2007 2:56 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-29-2007 10:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 04-29-2007 11:02 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 249 by DrJones*, posted 04-29-2007 11:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2007 8:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6146 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 247 of 298 (398239)
04-29-2007 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 10:55 PM


Re: How is that okay?
If Jehovah be the true god, he will do what he will the the promised land and nobody will stop him. Thus Israel wins all their wars regardless of the odds and as per prophecy.
This is the only thing in your post that seemed to address my question. If this is the case, then it sounds like he's more of a tormentor and tyrant than a merciful God for all. We both know that's not the case, so either
a)justify the behavior you described
or
b)admit that he's not always so merciful, loving, and open-minded according to your interpretation of God.

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 10:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2503 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 248 of 298 (398241)
04-29-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 10:55 PM


Re: How is that okay?
well you know, it's relatively pointless to argue about non-existant entities anyhow.
neither your god nor islam's god is real. for that matter, there is no god. so why argue over which one is "right" or "real" when none are?
you know what would be interesting to see? A debate between Buz and a fundamentalist muslim. My bet--you two will say the exact same things, except in favor of your "chosen" god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 10:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 11:17 PM kuresu has replied
 Message 251 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-29-2007 11:19 PM kuresu has not replied
 Message 257 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2007 9:15 PM kuresu has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2283
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 249 of 298 (398243)
04-29-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 10:55 PM


Re: How is that okay?
Jehovah is the true god since his program is on tract as per the prophecies of both OT and NT
Oh false, christianity and judiaism merely stole these prophecies from the worshippers of Odin the Allfather the one true God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Thus Israel wins all their wars regardless of the odds and as per prophecy.
If god is so protective of the jews then why did he let 6 million of them be murdered in the Holocaust?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 10:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 298 (398244)
04-29-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by kuresu
04-29-2007 11:02 PM


Re: How is that okay?
kuresu writes:
you know what would be interesting to see? A debate between Buz and a fundamentalist muslim. My bet--you two will say the exact same things, except in favor of your "chosen" god.
Well, my friend, the last real debate I had with a Muslim was on the old now defunct Newsmax forum. I was buzzboy then. The day before 9/11/01 the debate was going hot and heavy, me debating that Islam was a violent religion as per the Koran, Haddith and Sunnahs. The Muslim fellow along with the secularists were debating the Muslims line that it was peaceful. Well the evidence fell hard and sure the next day with the debate ended and me the winner hands down, not that I wanted that much evidence piled on us. The Muslim fellow never showed up again after the forum opened back up a few days later. He was likely out dancing in the streets along with the hords of other fundie Muslims around the world who were so happy those towers fell and those people died.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add 01 to date

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 04-29-2007 11:02 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by kuresu, posted 04-29-2007 11:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6146 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 251 of 298 (398246)
04-29-2007 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by kuresu
04-29-2007 11:02 PM


Re: How is that okay?
kuresu writes:
well you know, it's relatively pointless to argue about non-existant entities anyhow.
neither your god nor islam's god is real. for that matter, there is no god. so why argue over which one is "right" or "real" when none are?
You know, I was going to point out that you couldn't expect everyone to agree with you that God doesn't exist in the 'Faith and Belief' forum, but then I looked at the header. Why is this in Miscellaneous, anyway?
As for the bet... that'd be great. are there any fundamentalist muslims on here? I feel like I've debated with one before, but my photographic memory uses disposable cameras, so it doesn't always go back three years.

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 04-29-2007 11:02 PM kuresu has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2503 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 252 of 298 (398250)
04-29-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 11:17 PM


Re: How is that okay?
uh-huh. riight buz. whatever.
never mind all the violence done in christ's name.
and never mind the insinuation that all muslims were dancing in the streets because of 9/11.
there are those who argue for violence--even christianity has them. there are those who argue for peace--even islam has them.
Each religion is a pretty big tent. Making those full generalizations is dangerous.
I have a feeling you wouldn't have a problem with a crusade against the muslims. Never mind the hypocrisy of using violence to convert/eliminate when you argue that christianity is solely peaceful.
And violence is more than just killing--when you make statements like
He was likely out dancing in the streets along with the hords of other fundie Muslims around the world who were so happy those towers fell and those people died.
you're not doing a good job turning the other cheek or forgiving, are you? Your violence is in the words you use, not necessarily the actions you take.
So tell me, are you truly peaceful if you have such contempt for muslims? My answer is you aren't. Your words undermine the gospel you preach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 11:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Nighttrain, posted 04-30-2007 7:44 AM kuresu has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 253 of 298 (398295)
04-30-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by kuresu
04-29-2007 11:37 PM


Re: How is that okay?
and never mind the insinuation that all muslims were dancing in the streets because of 9/11.
Hi, K, wasn`t a lot of that footage shown to be a hoax? Shot in Lebanon several years before 9/11?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by kuresu, posted 04-29-2007 11:37 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 254 of 298 (398302)
04-30-2007 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Buzsaw
04-29-2007 10:55 PM


Re: How is that okay?
The bottom line is which god is the true god
For the purposes of debate - that doesn't matter at all. The bottom line is whether different religions can worship the same deity (though obviously one of them has got it wrong). The difference in personality that God exhibits from the OT to the NT is much larger than the difference in personality from OT to Koran. The NT is the odd one out, so if any of the books can be said to have God down wrong, the NT is the most likely candidate.
The only way around this problem is to special plead. To say that the NT God is the right definition and any deviations from it must be worshipping a different deity.
Yahweh as defined in the OT is jealous. He is wrathful. He encourages war against unbelievers, he destroys cities and races that are abhorent. He even wiped out most of humanity when it got too much. The NT god has changed how he wants his world to be run. Chilled and groovy, with pacifism in spades.
The Koranic god combines the two. Mercy and wrath dealt out as Allah sees fit.
Christianity accepts that God can change his tune - but somehow many Christians seem to reject Islam because it is a religion in which God is said to have changed his tune. Au contraire says Islam. God has never changed his tune, man has only paid attention and only recorded the revelations he personally agrees with. As such, God decides to use Muhammed to deliver the undiluted whole truth.
Once again man screwed up here. The Koran has been edited, and supplemented with other works against his strict instructions. It looks like mankind is doomed really.
Herein lies the problem with revelation - which revelation is fallacious? The Jews believe that everything God needs to say was said to the Jews. The Christians believe God changed the way we should live as the times change and that he did this through Christ. The Muslims believe that God talked to the Jews, but they corrupted his word and turned their back on him so often that he sent Jesus to steer them back on course which was once again corrputed so he sent the final prophet, Mohammed to get it right once and for all.
Both Christianity and Islam need convoluted apologetics to justify their deviation from the original depiction of the Abrahamic god. I see Christianity has needed to do more apologetics than Islam, but that Islam is now more corrupted than Christianity. Corruption of course comes from power, and Islam holds a lot of power (theocracies) whereas Christianity holds a lot of power too, but not quite so absolutely.
This doesn't mean that both religions didn't come from the Jewish deity that sprang itself upon Abraham. The only differences come from exactly what God said, what man has accurately recorded what God said and what that means.
When we are analyzing these things we have to do it from various assumptions as to who is right.
1. Islam is right: Allah=God
2. Christianity is right: Allah is a corrupted version of God from the mind of a lunatic/warlord etc.
3. Jusaism is right: Allah is a corrupted version of the Christian God which is a corrupted version of the true God.
4. None of them are right: There are three main descriptions of the Abrahamic God in current existence. There have been many others (eg Gnostics) which are either extinct or so rarely worshipped so as to be as good as. There is the Jewish view of God, the Christian view of God and the Muslim view of God. One day there may only be two existing views, or perhaps a fourth will (re?)emerge.
I take the latter view. You take two views. One that Allah is a corrupted version of Yahweh and another that Allah isn't even a corrupted vesion of Yahweh , he's an entirely different deity altogether unrelated to Yahweh. I think you should stick with the former and discard the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2007 10:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
reletomp
Junior Member (Idle past 6037 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 09-07-2007


Message 255 of 298 (420309)
09-07-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Fist of Fury
06-20-2006 1:23 PM


yrb'nch of idiots
it is written every where by scholars of the bible and critiques that YHWH (Jehovah) is nothing but the blotting of the name of God, What ever was the name of God Ezra and after him the talmudists decided to blot the name out by adding few strokes on the letters and erasing some strokes ( in the Paleo Hebrew alphabet that is) so that in case the parchment of bible or the whole Masorete if fell in hands of the enemies that the name of God does not get disgraced.
So from the begining you idiots the talmudists and your lieing prophets like Ezra already explained to you from ancient times why they did that.
Later generations forgot the original name of God because it fell from use for 600 years ( from Ezrs till the time of after Bar Kokhba revolt, when a new school for rabbies where established in Caesarea Palestine by the Emperor. feeling pitty so that they recollect their bible.
The talmudists rabbies happened to fall on a copy of the whole bible in the caves of Qumran ( hidden by the Christians Esssenes who were in hiding persecuted by all jews and romans). you bunch of crooks. you already know that don;t you but hiding it.
and guess what the name of God in the original bible in place of YHWH??
Allah.
bunch of brain damaged!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Fist of Fury, posted 06-20-2006 1:23 PM Fist of Fury has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by AdminPD, posted 09-07-2007 7:36 PM reletomp has not replied
 Message 258 by Buzsaw, posted 09-07-2007 9:24 PM reletomp has not replied
 Message 260 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2007 3:02 AM reletomp has not replied

  
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