YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.

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Previously posted by buzsaw

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4. As I've said before and I repeat, until the Jews had moved away from their close relationship they once enjoyed with their god that they developed this reluctance from speaking his name . . .

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Most recently posted by buzsaw

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Yah sure, and personal insultive inuendos add nothing to augment your arguments, nor do they refute my factual statements, do they?

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Two observations:1)Your point #4 reproduced above is not a "factual statement". It is an unsupported assertion.2)Why would you consider my comment an insulting inuendo? You did use the prejudicial terms "paranoia" and "groundless superstition" in regard to Jewish religious practices; didn't you?You would not, then, consider me to be prejudiced if I were to say that you only practice the tenets of your religion because of your "paranoia" and that your religious practices are based on "groundless superstition"?Or would your own words, aimed back at yourself, have more of a sting?Amlodhi

Were they PARANOID only during the last few centuries BC??? If I had lived with the Jews for a couple thousand years under the DIRECT command of a god like YHWH, I would be paranoid too! If they broke just one teensy-weensy piece of the Mosaic law during the "Judges" years, then they were hideously executed. Where do you get your info. about the Jews not being allowed to say "the name" only during the last few centuries BC? That would be an interesting study. It may give a clue to how the name was REALLY pronounced. You better hope that doesn't happen because then people everywhere could seriously blaspheme.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

Thankyou wonderously!, for your illustrious comments on the ROCK at the "Hajj". I'll have to talk to a religious muslim to get more details, and then I will inform everyone about the ROCK. I thought it was some kind of glassy-meteorite 'sent to earth by Allah' for some weird reason.
Yes, I remember the Jimmy Carter administration when the Iatola Komaynee was on a pedistal in Iran. They do seem to get pretty close to idolatry with people without actually doing it.
I wonder what kind of coniption-fit the fundamentalists would have if somebody snuck in and made off with that rock![This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

To combat my own creeping ignorance on the subject, I simply looked it up...The following is from a cnn online area devoted to the Hajj. All you have to do to get there is go to yahoo and enter "hajj"."Most people might imagine the Hajj to be a complicated and perhaps demanding version of a Catholic confession -- a visit to God's holiest site for Muslims to plead forgiveness for sins. (Perhaps with a fear that one's sins might be so bad that they can't be overlooked.) In fact, the Hajj is a very happy affair. Essentially, it's a gathering of more than 2 million people who have achieved a "mission of a lifetime." They've arrived at the geographical and physical heart of their religion, so pilgrims are usually elated to have made it to Mecca -- or Makkah, to use the old name that has been reinstated. Mecca marks the spot where, according to tradition, the prophet Abraham first built a shrine to worship God. It was a caravan crossroads through rocky outcroppings in the desert, which grew into a modern, noisy, bustling center.During the Hajj, the atmosphere is more one of celebration in and around the city, which is open only to Muslims. In a way, that exclusion of non-Muslims is a pity. It prevents much of the world from seeing what a mixed community Islam embraces. There are the colorfully dressed, and often loud and cheerful, Africans -- many from Nigeria. Small, closely huddled groups of women from Indonesia and the Philippines often wind their way through the huge crowds that take over Mecca. A chorus of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Bosnians, Arabs ... it's truly a melting pot. Men, women and children are all equally in awe of this place they've known only through pictures, and perhaps television.Add to that jam-packed streets and a mix of languages, and it's amazing that hardly a voice is raised in anger, or confrontation witnessed. Everyone really tries to help each other through this annual miracle of logistics and mass movement of people. And that's what the Hajj mostly is -- a movement through the desert. The pilgrims flood into Mecca by air, sea, motor vehicles and sometimes still the odd camel caravan, which is how it was done in the "old" days.Many pilgrims arrive having made a trip to the huge Prophet's Mosque in Medina -- a city that first became home to Mohammed, when he and his early followers were driven out of Mecca. It's considered a great blessing to pray at this remarkable mosque.Once in Mecca, the first goal of the pilgrims is to get over to the Great Mosque that surrounds the best known structure symbolizing Islam -- the Kaaba. The Kaaba is a cubic stone structure the size of a modest house, but it's clad in a black silk cloth, with Arabic embroidered onto it in gold. Pilgrims rush to see this sight to remind themselves that they've actually arrived at the heart of Islam -- the center of their religion. The Kaaba is the location that Muslims turn to pray toward daily. Blessings for prayers in the holy Great Mosque are considered to be multiplied thousands of times.The Kaaba is the shrine that Muslims turn to five times each day when praying. During the Hajj, pilgrims circle the Kaaba seven times.

But it comes as a surprise to most that the core purpose of the Hajj is not to look out on the wonders of the Kaaba and the beautiful mosque, but to look within -- to discover oneself. The pilgrimage involves a trek through the desert to the tent city at Mina, and from there, on to the plain of Arafat. It was here on a small hill that Mohammed preached his last sermon, declaring that Muslims must conduct the pilgrimage in this particular manner. It was a ritual dating back to the time of Abraham and follows mostly the events he experienced in affirming his faith to God. That final sermon by Mohammed set in stone the pilgrimage duty for those who were to follow Islam for centuries on.The Hajj pilgrims stay in Arafat until sunset before weaving their way back to Mecca, again, via Mina. But it's those crucial hours in the desert where Muslims are supposed to discover what the Hajj is all about. That time is meant to be the most honest in a person's life -- an honest reflection on all that a person has done right and wrong. Then comes the request to God for forgiveness, and the chance to make a fresh start.In a way, it's not what you do during the Hajj that matters.It's what you do after, and perhaps there comes the understanding."I'd say good luck on anyone trying to steal a house-size "rock". But if someone did, the above suggests they'd just build another one. It seems to be an overly decorative "you are here" sign.------------------
holmes

Hello Prozacman,Please excuse the interjection, but the term "paranoia" indicates a condition of either psychosis or (at best) extreme irrationality.Also, John has provided a link to some information in regard to when speaking the Name first began to be avoided. The theories concerning this are based on whether or not the name appears in certain books of the bible and the relative dating of these (or parts of these) books. There are also references regarding the proscription of using the Name in some of the later rabbinical writings.According to these estimations, while by 300 b.c. the Name was no longer spoken, it is suspected that the disuse of the Name began in the last years of the Babylonian exile.Two possible reasons given for this avoidance are, "(due) to reverence . . ." (so Geiger); and "to guard against desecration . . ." (so Dalman).There has been no support given for the assertion that it was a "falling away" from God that precipitated the disuse of the Name.A far more likely explanation is that this practice began as a result of the Jews being resident in a foreign country, coupled with the fact that their religious services would consequently take the form of "synagogue" meetings and "rabbinical discussions" of Mosaic law as opposed to the former temple worship conducted by the priests.Regardless of one's opinions regarding this, however, the unsupported assertion that these Jewish religious sentiments and practices were due to "paranoia" (psychosis, irrationality) and "groundless superstition" is both prejudicial and inflammatory.Namaste'Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-10-2003]

I thought Jacob climbed a latter; I didn't know M. climbed one too! The ROCK, Hmmm, Maybe M. saw the ROCK coming down, got confused and thought it would orbit the earth and take him to heaven to be with Allah. So what did M. do?? He climbed the highest mountain he could find, grabbed hold of the ROCK as it went by, and then smashed into the ground at Mecca! And, it's no wonder M. had a bunch of wives. They all thought he was Superman after that falling ROCK stunt!

I remember reading somewhere that on the Day of Judgement, Jews and Christians will be given one last chance to repent and become Muslims, before being cast into a fiery pit.Seems like a fair cop if you ask me - but it does kinda screw up the whole reasoning behind Pascal's (Ali's) Wager against Islam.PE

I agree; it would be highly inflammatory and prejudicial to say that the Jews stopped saying the "name" because of a mental quirk like paranoia. However, it is my opinion that extreme forms of religion, if indeed that is the case here, can lead some highly impressionable people down the road to mental-illness. I also agree with you that it is hurtful to call another persons religion "groundless-superstition", and that the "name" didnot fall into disuse because the Jews "fell away" from God. In fact, in my previous readings on Jewish History, I came away with the distinct impression that during the Babylonian-Captivity, if the Jews uttered the "name", then they were in danger of being executed.

OK, so Jews & Christians will be given one last shot at repentance when they stand before Allah on Judgement-Day. Sounds like a better deal than what most fundamentalist-christians offer. That is: When anybody reaches Judgement-Day without having been "born-again", sorry; their toast. That's what I used to believe! But what about all the other religious people who are not Jews, Christians, or Moslems. Does one go to the firey-pit if one is a Buddist, or Hindu, etc., and they stand before Allah on J-Day? What happens to the so-called souls of the Cro-Magnon people of 20,000 years ago, the Neanderthal of 40,000 years ago, the prehistoric American Indians? How about Bonobo Chimps who just happen to be as smart as 5 to 8 year old human children, dolphins&whales, etc.,etc. By the way, what on God-scream-earth is Pacal's Wager against Islam!? PM[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

Thankyou Holmes for the insightful comments, and the referral to CNN on what the "Hajj" is all about. It's very interesting reading. I now understand the ROCK(Kaaba) better.PM[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

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1)Your point #4 reproduced above is not a "factual statement". It is an unsupported assertion.

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Ok, Amlodhi, it sounds like you speak with authority. Teach me, please, as to where I've been missreading my Biblical history of Israel and Judah all these years. I've had it that after the Babylonian exile, they had one short lived time of mediocre revival and pretty much went downhill and into obscurity from then on with the norther tribes (Israel) dispersing and Judah delving in to much of the idolatry that did Israel in. Then as Jesus and the prophets prophesied, Judah became dispersed all over the planet. The prophets all warned them it would be so and indeed it was. Where'm I goin wrong here with my history?

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2)Why would you consider my comment an insulting inuendo? You did use the prejudicial terms "paranoia" and "groundless superstition" in regard to Jewish religious practices; didn't you?

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You would not, then, consider me to be prejudiced if I were to say that you only practice the tenets of your religion because of your "paranoia" and that your religious practices are based on "groundless superstition"?

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Or would your own words, aimed back at yourself, have more of a sting?

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Ok, ok. Paranoia was not the right word. It's gona be hard to apologize to all those deceased Israelites and Jews for that, but I stand corrected. Imo, they did become somewhat superstitious about using the name after all the centuries when it was ok.No, go ahead and assess/critique my religion till your heart's content. Only please remember. I'm not RCC or liberal protestant. I'm a Biblical fundamentalist. Big, big difference. If you base your allegations on no more substantive stuff I'm reading here, it'll amount to little anyhow. Lol. I've been called about everything in the book since coming to town anyhow, and one's skin thickens accordingly, as doggy's hide does in the winter to withstand the storms.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-10-2003]

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There has been no support given for the assertion that it was a "falling away" from God that precipitated the disuse of the Name.

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When they were obedient and in good standing with their god they wrote and spoke the name of him as evidently directed, for he raised no objection. Their scribes and priests were very meticulous in keeping and writing every letter, jot and tittle when copying scriptures. If I'm not mistaken, I believe thay did wash their hands before writing the name on scrolls as a symbolic show of reverence for the name. But to forbid the name to be written or spoken would have gone against the rule they formerly abode by of keeping everything as written.

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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I've had it that after the Babylonian exile, they had one short lived time of mediocre revival and pretty much went downhill and into obscurity from then on with the norther tribes (Israel) dispersing and Judah delving in to much of the idolatry that did Israel in. Then as Jesus and the prophets prophesied, Judah became dispersed all over the planet. The prophets all warned them it would be so and indeed it was. Where'm I goin wrong here with my history?

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Well, to begin with, the northern tribes (Israel) were already dispersed and long gone by the time of the Babylonian exile. Assyria conquered and dispersed Israel in 722 b.c. Shalmaneser had just died and Sargon II finished the job. It was this period after 722 b.c. that Judea (the southern kingdom) fell into idolatry and followed after the ways of Israel.The destruction of Solomon's temple and the Babylonian captivity didn't occur until 136 years later in 586 b.c. It was then in c. 538 b.c. that Cyrus conquered Babylonia and issued the decree for the Judeans to return to their homeland and build the second temple.Thus, if the Jewish avoidance of speaking the Name began to occur in the last decades of the exile, we are looking at c. 558 -538 b.c. After this point, from the building of the second temple through the Hasmonean period, not only was there no specified "falling away", but (once again) the verbal avoidance regarding the Name had already begun.In fact, in the years immediately following the captivity, in the time of Ezra, there was a strong return to adherence to the law; including the requirement that the Judeans who were married to foreign wives were to "put them away". It would be quite easy to suspect that it was during this "return to the law" campaign that the avoidance in speaking the Name became solidified.And of course, the later "prophesies" concerning the fall of the second temple in 70 a.d. are completely irrelevant.There is the history for you. If you would like to present some support for your assertion (such as; When did this "falling away" occur? And how was it different than, say, Judea's falling away in the 6th century b.c.?), I will be happy to listen. Until such support is provided, however, your assertion remains, ipso facto, unsupported.

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buzsaw:

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Ok, ok. Paranoia was not the right word.

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It's not a federal case. Just something many people need to be more conscious of.Namaste'Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 10-10-2003]

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Their scribes and priests were very meticulous in keeping and writing every letter, jot and tittle when copying scriptures.

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That may be the claim, but it would be a very difficult thing to do. it would virtually impossible for us to know if they succeeded. Then, it is obvious by the time of the Qumram colony that things were not copied exactly-- there were multiple variants. All the texts we have are after this period, so we can't really know what is a exact copy or not.

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But to forbid the name to be written or spoken would have gone against the rule they formerly abode by of keeping everything as written.

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It is in the latter books that the frequency of the name decreases, and then disappears. This isn't re-editting of the ancient texts, but simply not using the name in the first place.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Should have made this clear - Pascal's wager is basically an appeal to self-interest. That said, if I were using PW alone to choose between the three Abrahamic faiths then I would definitely not choose Islam, as if Islam were true, I'd still have one last chance on the Day of Judgement to repent as a Jew or Christian and get to houri heaven (whereas the same isn't true for Judaism and Christianity, I think).PE