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Author Topic:   The Problems with Evolution - Cambrian Explosion
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 64 (154721)
11-01-2004 12:06 AM


In an attempt to educate myself, I decided I would like to hear from the forum members what potential explainations they have for current problems with the evolutionary theory. I'm interested in potential explanations for the Cambrian Explosion.
This message has been edited by RustyShackelford, 11-01-2004 02:07 PM
(edited to remove the blood clotting cascade as ok'd by Rusty - AdminNosy)
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-04-2004 01:48 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 1:01 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 11-04-2004 6:39 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2004 12:43 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 64 (154735)
11-01-2004 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 12:06 AM


Too many topics
Rusty, one thing that is really difficult here is to keep any thread 'on topic'.
For that reason it is a good idea to at least start the opening post (OP) with a focussed a topic as you can.
The Cambrian explosion and the blood clotting cascade are two very different topics. In fact, the best fit for fora that I can think of would be "Biological Evolution" and "Intelligent Design" . They wouldn't even go in the same forum.
The other one is just as separate. There is nothing wrong with starting multiple topics. In fact, that is better.
I would however, suggest that you start them one at a time (ok maybe two).
Edit this OP to be just the one you really want to discuss first and then start another one when you are ready. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 12:06 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 1:57 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 3 of 64 (154887)
11-01-2004 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
11-01-2004 1:01 AM


Bump for Rusty
You seem to have forgotten that you proposed this topic (actually about 3 topics).
This is just to remind you to pick one or two if you want to get them rolling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 1:01 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:06 PM AdminNosy has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 64 (154893)
11-01-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminNosy
11-01-2004 1:57 PM


Re: Bump for Rusty
How about I make the first paragraph one topic (that all has to do with evolution, and should go into that forum) and the second another topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 1:57 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 5:06 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 64 (155015)
11-01-2004 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:06 PM


Re: Bump for Rusty
THere are still two large topics in one paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:06 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:44 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 64 (155692)
11-04-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNosy
11-01-2004 5:06 PM


Re: Bump for Rusty
Oooooook, how about this then......check it now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 5:06 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:46 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 64 (155693)
11-04-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:44 AM


Re: Bump for Rusty
In an attempt to educate myself, I decided I would like to hear from the forum members what potential explainations they have for current problems with the evolutionary theory. I'm interested in potential explanations for the Cambrian Explosion.
That better? Just the CE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:44 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AdminNosy, posted 11-04-2004 3:24 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 11 by Quetzal, posted 11-04-2004 9:13 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 13 by mark24, posted 11-04-2004 8:59 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 8 of 64 (155726)
11-04-2004 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:46 AM


Biological Evolution won't accept new topics
I've tried several times to transfer this and it won't go to BE. Will try another forum for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:46 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 9 of 64 (155727)
11-04-2004 3:25 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 10 of 64 (155741)
11-04-2004 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 12:06 AM


To the Admins: when 'accepting' proposed new topics, would it be possible to clean out all the unnessecary clutter posts from the thread (i.e. posts 2-9 here)?
Hi Rusty,
Why's the Cambrian Explosion a problem for evolution? I think it's a fairly clear cut example of radial evolution - as soon as multicellular life emerged it expanded to fill a whole load of new niches that became available. With no existing competition, even fairly inefficent lifeforms were able to survive and prosper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 12:06 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-04-2004 7:14 PM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 16 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:10 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 11 of 64 (155783)
11-04-2004 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:46 AM


Problem?
Hi Rusty,
It's interesting to me that the way you phrased the question implies there's a "problem" for the ToE posed by the so-called Cambrian Explosion. Could you please expand on what problem you see in this period, so I know how to respond effectively?
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:46 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 12 of 64 (156056)
11-04-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Jack
11-04-2004 6:39 AM


Yes, dear. All we need to do is move the fixed post and it becomes post 1 of the new thread.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 11-04-2004 6:39 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 64 (156071)
11-04-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:46 AM


Re: Bump for Rusty
Hi Rusty,
By amazing coincidence I've just finished In the Blink of an Eye: the Cause of the Most Dramatic Event in the History of Life, by Andrew Parker. This book lays out the foundations, the rationale, & a potential solution to the "problem" of the Cambrian explosion. Personally I couldn't help shaking the feeling that he was overstating the case on a few points, but hey ho.
It goes something like this. Evolution in the Precambrian proceeded at a relatively slow rate. The reason for this is that one major sensory adaptation had yet to take place: vision. Predation did occur, but relied on vibration/chemical sensory detection. All you had to do to avoid predation was to not smell, & be quiet. The only way the predators could then get you was to "happen" upon you, or you drift into them (in the case of ambushers/filter feeders). Clearly, there was only so far you could go with limited sensory apparatus developmental-wise, so selective pressure in this regard was limited, resulting in limited evolutionary impetus.
At the base of the Cambrian the first fossil evidence of eyes appears, specifically the first belonged to trilobites. This changed the entire arena with regard to predator prey relationships. No longer was predation necessarily a passive affair. A predator could now target its prey from afar, & since most of those predators were themselves prey, prey could now take preventative measures against predation. This resulted in an instantaneous arms race with enormous selective pressures in operation that previously did not exist. And large selective pressures equals rapid evolution. With the advent of eyes, so the selective pressures were there for new modes of locomotion, physical protection, escape, & camouflage. And remember, all of this "exploded" onto a scene where nobody occupied any of the new ecological niches. There was no pressure from "incumbent" niche holders (at least initially) to prevent evolutionary innovation.
The corrolory question is, why did eyes take 3 bn years to form if they were so useful? A fair question, & there are answers that are all highly speculative (in my opinion), but that's a different issue to the one you raise. The fact is, there is no evidence of eyes in the Precambrian, & they appear at the start of the Cambrian explosion. Clearly such a biologically efficient sensory apparatus would revolutionise the selective & adaptive landscapes of most organisms in the upper sunlit ocean, resulting in rapid adaptation, followed by a slowing of evolutionary tempo as selective pressures eased as adaptation was achieved.
Parker makes use of a modern study to support his low light = slow evolution hypothesis. Isopods are probably most familiar to us as the woodlouse, but most species are marine. There was a study off of Australia that sought to discern the biodiversity at different depths of various crustacea (to which Isopods belong). What was noticed that the largest species occurred at the greatest depth, & that biodiversity was lowest there. A similar study was performed the other side of the Indian Ocean, & some interesting facts revealed themselves. The shallow species were many, varied, & small, the Aussie shallow isopods were diffent species to the Indian ones. The deeper you went, however, the larger the isopods got, & the lower the biodiversity became. There came a point where the largest & deepest isopod, Bathynomus propinquus was actually the same species as the Australian large-deep-isopod (barring a few minor differences such as spine number, etc). Both the Aussie shallowest & deepest isopods had been separated from each other for the same length of time as their Indian equivalents, but in the darkest environment, evolution had proceeded much, much slower than in the shallower sunlit environments, resulting in negligable morphological change. ie. No light (or lack of vision) that is uniform in all oganisms in any given environment results in slower rates of evolution.
Interesting, non?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:46 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:20 PM mark24 has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 14 of 64 (156072)
11-04-2004 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AdminAsgara
11-04-2004 7:14 PM


Blush
I'll do it right next time, I promise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-04-2004 7:14 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 15 of 64 (156207)
11-05-2004 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 12:06 AM


There is one big problem with arguments that the Cambrian "Explosion" is a problem for evolution. And that is the fact that as more evidence is uncovered we see less and less of an explosion.
Here's just one piece of recent evidence :
Pharyngula - Hotell anbefalinger Barcelona
quote:
The important point is that this animal possesses the rudiments of morphological characters that are going to erupt into a wide range of diverse specializations in the Cambrian, and it has them roughly 50 million years before the Cambrian ‘explosion’. The phyletic innovations we have first seen so clearly in the Cambrian did not come out of nowhere, but have a solid evolutionary foundation in simpler animals.
More and more it seems that the Cambrian "Explosion" represents not a sudden growth in diversity, but a smaller set of evolutionary changes which produced forms of life more likely to show up in the fossil record. (An increase in size being one of the more important issues - phosphatisation can preserve small animals as fossils, but most forms of fossilisation do not).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 12:06 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
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