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Author Topic:   The Problems with Evolution - Cambrian Explosion
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 64 (156453)
11-05-2004 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Jack
11-04-2004 6:39 AM


as soon as multicellular life emerged it expanded to fill a whole load of new niches that became available.
And this took 3 billion years to happen why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 11-04-2004 6:39 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 64 (156456)
11-05-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by mark24
11-04-2004 8:59 PM


Re: Bump for Rusty
The corrolory question is, why did eyes take 3 bn years to form if they were so useful?
Bingo. Not to mention that, since the first evolution of vision, vision is thought to have evolved about 35 seperate times........and vision is also an irreducibly complex process.
So, these facts combined seem to be a pretty good argument for the intelligent design of vision.......doesn't it? Like I said before, I see the Precambrian and Cambrian as examples of evolution without ID and evolution with it, like those old "this is your brain on drugs" commercials from the 80s.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by mark24, posted 11-04-2004 8:59 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by mark24, posted 11-06-2004 4:20 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 64 (156458)
11-05-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
11-05-2004 12:43 PM


and it has them roughly 50 million years before the Cambrian ‘explosion’. The phyletic innovations we have first seen so clearly in the Cambrian did not come out of nowhere, but have a solid evolutionary foundation in simpler animals.
50 million years is nothing, in geographical terms.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2004 12:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 10:33 PM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 11-06-2004 4:31 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 64 (156462)
11-05-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RustyShackelford
11-05-2004 10:26 PM


50 million years is nothing, in geographical terms.....
In biological terms, its millions upon millions of generations. But you're right that it's not very long in "geographical" (actually I think you meant "geologic") terms.
That's why, in the fossil record, it looks like an "explosion." Geologically, it happened quickly. Biologically, it happened over multiple millions of generations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:26 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:39 PM crashfrog has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 64 (156466)
11-05-2004 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 10:33 PM


Yes, and millions of generations is NOTHING compared to the trillions of generations that went before the CE........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 10:33 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 10:48 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 64 (156468)
11-05-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RustyShackelford
11-05-2004 10:39 PM


Yes, and millions of generations is NOTHING compared to the trillions of generations that went before the CE........
Honestly? Not much changed in the CE, except the body plans of invertebrates. There was less evolution in the millions of years of the CE than in the trillions of generations between the initial pre-biotic replicator and a fully-functioning cell.
If there was a scale of complexity, and the first pre-biotic replicating ancestor is a 1, then living things right before the CE are 80, and the sundry intertebrate species arising during the CE are 85, early amniote vertebrates are 95, and mammals are 100.
I realize that you disagree, and that you see less difference between the first pre-biotic molecule and a fully-functional cell than between that single-celled organism and multicellular invertebrates. But that's because you're not very well-versed in the complex chemistry of the cell. Of course, this is just a fuzzy estimate, as we really don't have much of a measure of complexity. But there's a lot more that goes on in a cell than goes on between cells.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 10:39 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:18 PM crashfrog has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 64 (156481)
11-05-2004 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 10:48 PM


Apparently, a lot of people disagree, as the aforementioned guy who wrote a whole book trying to explain the CE surely does........how many ecological niches could possibly exist at the cellular level?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 10:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 11:20 PM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 64 (156482)
11-05-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RustyShackelford
11-05-2004 11:18 PM


how many ecological niches could possibly exist at the cellular level?
Well, the vast, vast majority of life on Earth, by any measure you care to use, is still unicellular. We find unicellular life literally every single place we look.
So I'd say there's quite a few ecological niches at that level, yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:18 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:53 PM crashfrog has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 64 (156491)
11-05-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 11:20 PM


Well, the vast, vast majority of life on Earth, by any measure you care to use, is still unicellular. We find unicellular life literally every single place we look.
So I'd say there's quite a few ecological niches at that level, yes.
That's because they breed a lot faster than multi-celled life forms, not because there are more ecological niches to be filled at the cellular level.........so, unless you can produce evidence that there are more ecological niches at the cellular level than the multi-cellular level, your hypothesis falls flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 11:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 12:13 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 64 (156496)
11-06-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by RustyShackelford
11-05-2004 11:53 PM


so, unless you can produce evidence that there are more ecological niches at the cellular level than the multi-cellular level, your hypothesis falls flat.
We find unicellular life in more places than we find multicellular life, including inside of multicellular life.
Case closed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-05-2004 11:53 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 12:19 AM crashfrog has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 64 (156499)
11-06-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
11-06-2004 12:13 AM


That doesn't mean they fill more ecological niches.......case open. Or closed, rather, because I know you don't have proof to the contrary, or you would have presented it already.

"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago
I think it's cute that Sidelined changed his quote to be in direct opposition of mine. Internal thought
"I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets...
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen."
The Nicene Creed
Winner of the LSS's 2004 Longest Signature Award

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 12:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 12:25 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 36 by mark24, posted 11-06-2004 4:19 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 64 (156503)
11-06-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 12:19 AM


That doesn't mean they fill more ecological niches.....
We find them in more niches.
That can only be because there are more niches avaliable to them than to other forms of life. This isn't that hard, Jason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 12:19 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 12:39 AM crashfrog has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 28 of 64 (156511)
11-06-2004 12:33 AM


One thing that may have helped spur on the CE was the increase of CaCO3 in the Cambrian oceans. Researchers have found evidence for a large spike in calcium content in the seas at that time. The organisms would have had to find a way of handling all that calcium and it's possible shells were a result of that. I don't think that alone would do it, but perhaps in association with other happening on earth...
Note: If I could find some online literature I would post it, however, I have not been able to find anything yet.

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 64 (156515)
11-06-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
11-06-2004 12:25 AM


We find them in more niches.
That can only be because there are more niches avaliable to them than to other forms of life. This isn't that hard, Jason.
Because we find them in DIFFERENT niches doesn't mean we find them in MORE niches.......there are also clearly niches that are multi-cell exclusive, as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 12:25 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 11-06-2004 12:46 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 64 (156521)
11-06-2004 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 12:39 AM


Because we find them in DIFFERENT niches doesn't mean we find them in MORE niches.......there are also clearly niches that are multi-cell exclusive, as well.
Uh, no, there aren't. I guarantee that there is no place you would find multi-cell life that you wouldn't find unicellular life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 12:39 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 12:51 AM crashfrog has replied

  
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