The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.

Phat writes: I don't get the context of your statement. Are you attempting humor, irony, or honest criticism? Clarification will help my

Over the last few weeks you've turned from a nice if overly-Christian guy a bit confused about life the universe and everything to an unlikeable, aggressively pious, bullshit preaching idiot.

That's all, no humour, no irony.

But alas you and no one else has ever presented any contemporary, historical evidence for this christ character. There is no evidence he existed so why would I put any credence into stories about him.

What percentage of christians do you think have ever read their bible? I mean actually read it cover to cover.

I don't know. My mother read it through once a year or so, but I don't think she paid much attention to doctrine. My father certainly read it through and knew it well. (He may have had the same memory for trivia that I do. )

Not just taking verses out of context.

What bugs me is that they tend to think the "overall context" overrides the local context. That gives them leeway to impose their "overall" interpretation on anything.

Let me try and find the transcript for you, ringo.

ringo writes: What bugs me is that they tend to think the "overall context" overrides the local context. That gives them leeway to impose their "overall" interpretation on anything.

Dont you have an overall interpretation of your own? Dont you often use scriptures to support your overall interpretation? I know jar has one. Im going to combine the two of you and call you Jingo!

Phat writes: Dont you have an overall interpretation of your own?

No more than I have an overall interpretation of the library.

Phat writes: Dont you often use scriptures to support your overall interpretation?

I do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.

do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.

Fair enough. And you know that it is right because....

A) The Book says so.
B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.

IF B, then:
1) Humans don't need God. We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him.
2) Occasionally, the Bible points out wisdom that we already intuitively knew.

IF 2, then:
a) We were born with knowledge of the right intuition.

Finally, if so, and if God is limited to a human derived book, where did we get our intuitive knowledge of what is right?

Phat writes: ringo writes: do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong. Fair enough. And you know that it is right because.... A) The Book says so. B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.

Sheesh. Phat, there are no moral or ethical observations or recommendations or commandments in the Bible stories that did not also appear even earlier in other religions and social systems.

Study the writings of Mencius or Confucius or the sayings of the Buddha or Taoism or any of the thousands of religions that existed before Christianity.

Phat writes: IF B, then: 1) Humans don't need God. We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him. 2) Occasionally, the Bible points out wisdom that we already intuitively knew.

Almost. The Bible points out wisdom that was also common to many social systems. There is nothing "intuitive" about it; it evolved through experience and mythos that was passed down generation by generation, society by society.

Phat writes: IF 2, then: a) We were born with knowledge of the right intuition.

But the evidence show we are NOT born with any "right intuition™" but rather it develops over time and experience.

Sheesh. Phat, there are no moral or ethical observations or recommendations or commandments in the Bible stories that did not also appear even earlier in other religions and social systems. Study the writings of Mencius or Confucius or the sayings of the Buddha or Taoism or any of the thousands of religions that existed before Christianity

You could claim that Hammurabi's law preceded the Biblical commandments but all the rest you list didn't appear until the fifth to seventh centuries BC. Moses died in the 13th century BC. Christianity builds on the Old Testament.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The Buddha taught everything Jesus taught and hundreds of years before Jesus lived. The Hindu Vedas predate the Old Testament and many religious system predated the Garden of Eden.

The point is that there is nothing in the Bible that was not also developed independently in many other cultures.

There are plenty of MORAL similarities, which only shows that the universe is in fact governed by moral law, which both the Bible and Buddhism maintain. I'm not sure about the others but my guess would be they all acknowledge a universal moral law. But Christianity is about our salvation from the consequences of that moral law, which is absolutely unique.

Phat writes: And you know that it is right because.... A) The Book says so. B) Logic, reason, and the reality of human morality say so.

Nothing is true because any book says it is. Sometimes, what a book says is true but we had to know it was true before the book was written.

Phat writes: Humans don't need God.

God is not doing what humans need done, providing food, shelter, etc. Jesus acknowledged that when He told us to do it for each other.

Phat writes: We have an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong without Him.

That's what Paul said: "For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...." (Romans 2:14).

Phat writes: if so, and if God is limited to a human derived book, where did we get our intuitive knowledge of what is right?

It isn't so much what is "right". It's what works best in a social species. It's part of our evolved social behaviour.

Faith writes: But Christianity is about our salvation from the consequences of that moral law, which is absolutely unique.

Yup, the "get outta responsibility Christianity" is certainly easy to market, disgusting and pitiful.

Since it is extremely rare, if it really occurs at all, for a person to be able to undo his own moral debt, or karma as it is called in some religions, and therefore has to go to that religion's version of Hell, or get reincarnated as a cockroach or other animal form through many lives until he finally figures out how to undo his karmic debt, I would think there might be a little gratitude for God's provision of a way out of all that.

What was needed was the participant that as not in agreement, the participant that can step up and say "Nonsense!!!".

If you were in Episcopal church reciting a liturgy or the BCP, it would be inappropriate for any random congregant to stop the service and voice their own opinion. At the time of prayer and communion, the agreement is shown through the act itself. There are always times to ask questions and voice opinion later.

True Believers are not an oxymoron but rather just a dead end.

They can be. They need not be. Im assuming that you label yourself a True Skeptic, or a True Questioner. Which is fine. Obviously God has other plans for you.

jar writes: The Buddha taught everything Jesus taught and hundreds of years before Jesus lived.

Correction. Hundreds of years before Jesus was "made man". Jesus existed eternally and always will exist. The Buddha is not in the same category. You will argue that humans created all of the religions and all of the characters, but if you really are a Creedal Cradle Christian you would at least acknowledge that He existed long before Buddha.