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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12980
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 286 of 307 (863657)
09-28-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
09-27-2019 12:04 PM


Re: content?
Of course evidence should trump faith and belief.
And yet you have said that the supernatural..if it exists...is untestable. Thus no evidence. You managed to get around this dissonance by logically concluding that GOD if GOD exists, does not pick and choose only some. He essentially saves everybody. AZPaul3 claims that there is nothing to justify a belief. Ironically, his may be the rational conclusion...but that does not make it a reality. Remember the construct?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 12:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by jar, posted 09-28-2019 3:10 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4635
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 287 of 307 (863659)
09-28-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Thugpreacha
09-28-2019 1:48 PM


Re: content?
Yes, but how do you know you don't just choose to assume this?

Because we study, analyse and understand facts. If there are no facts to study then there is nothing there to understand.

It just so happened that I had a sufficient reason to believe.

Humanity has shown us that one does not need any reason, sufficient or otherwise, to believe the most off-the-wall crazyness. Religion is an excellent example.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-28-2019 1:48 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 09-28-2019 2:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17408
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 288 of 307 (863660)
09-28-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Thugpreacha
09-28-2019 2:15 PM


Re: Sufficient Reason To Believe?
Phat writes:

One man sees empty and another sees full.


You're messing up the metaphor - it should be half empty and half full. Notice that the reality is the same in both cases; only the attitude is different.

Phat writes:

Convince me that empty is better for society.


I'm not saying empty is better for society. Getting rid of the empty beliefs would be better for society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-28-2019 2:15 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 289 of 307 (863661)
09-28-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by AZPaul3
09-28-2019 2:23 PM


Re: content?
Humanity has shown us that one does not need any reason, sufficient or otherwise, to believe the most off-the-wall crazyness.

So very true. Such as man-caused global warming.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by AZPaul3, posted 09-28-2019 2:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by AZPaul3, posted 09-28-2019 2:39 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4635
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 290 of 307 (863668)
09-28-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
09-28-2019 2:27 PM


Re: content?
Are you paid by Big Carbon to be a shill? Is that how you supplement your retirement?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 09-28-2019 2:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 09-28-2019 2:42 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 291 of 307 (863670)
09-28-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by AZPaul3
09-28-2019 2:39 PM


Re: content?
They aren't doing well by me I must say since they haven't provided me with a car for my work. Of course with my bad eyes they also need to supply a driver and that may exceed my value to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by AZPaul3, posted 09-28-2019 2:39 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 292 of 307 (863678)
09-28-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Thugpreacha
09-28-2019 2:20 PM


Re: content?
I remember the full construct Phat, not just the bumper sticker playground version.

Phat writes:

And yet you have said that the supernatural..if it exists...is untestable.

No, once again. I have said that no one has ever provided a model, mechanism, process, procedure or method to test the supernatural.

And as long as there is no evidence of either Demons or Supernatural Evil no one has ever shown any reason anyone should worry about such fantasies.

And yes, evidence should trump belief.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-28-2019 2:20 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12980
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 293 of 307 (863681)
09-28-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
09-20-2019 5:54 PM


Re: sheesh!
AZ writes:

Because we study, analyze and understand facts. If there are no facts to study then there is nothing there to understand.

So essentially you are dismissing belief as if humans alone are the arbitrator and definer of facts related to all reality. I would argue that we are limited to known reality. Besides, if God wanted humanity to believe based on evidence and facts, everyone would have no choice but to accept that God existed. The very fact that it is debateable(which it is) shows that the jury is out.

AZ writes:

Humanity has shown us that one does not need any reason, sufficient or otherwise, to believe the most off-the-wall craziness. Religion is an excellent example.

I will give you that religion can well be accused in part of being off the wall craziness. Simply the belief that a Creator of all seen and unseen who chose to make Itself known to humanity through a human messenger is itself not that crazy or off the wall simply because no facts or objective evidence arguably support it.

ringo writes:

Getting rid of the empty beliefs would be better for society.

Elaborate on what you specifically mean by empty beliefs. I would imagine that you would argue that the evidence shows that a global flood never happened. Faith would challenge that one but I don't have time nor concern for it. Ken Ham argues that without Genesis being literal, the whole belief falls apart. I disagree with that too. If you start asserting that Jesus never existed, however, I would argue with you. One of my off the wall beliefs is that we are basically in a spiritual war in the known and unknown worlds around us. No objective evidence so far, though...so we come to jar.

jar writes:

I can pray to God or Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Raven or Shiva or Vishnu and it is all the same.

That's sensible to you for several reasons. First, you believe that God chooses everyone and that we don't start out damned. You arrived at this belief through logic. Second, you feel that source is irrelevant and that the content of our character and our charged and willful actions during our lives is what really matters...what we do vs what we could have done.
jar writes:

Yup, the "get outta responsibility Christianity" is certainly easy to market, disgusting and pitiful.

Explain why what the apologists market...namely the "I Am Saved" Christianity is disgusting and pitiful. We still should have responsibility. I'll never forget years ago when I was facing overwhelming bankruptcy debts that you wanted me to pay them all off even if it prevented me from accepting forgiveness from the court. You mentioned that otherwise, everyone would have to pay MY debt. To you, the responsibility was necessary even if it hurt. I chose the other route. I have no regrets and no guilt over having placed my burden on society. Seems like I embraced "get out of responsibility" Christianity as a solution. The result? I no longer gamble and am debt-free. Had I listened to you I would be poor and broke nearly until I died. What is sad and pitiful is that you see no problem with that. Something about an honor system. Which strokes your own ego.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-20-2019 5:54 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by AZPaul3, posted 09-28-2019 5:29 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 2:39 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4635
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 294 of 307 (863684)
09-28-2019 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Thugpreacha
09-28-2019 4:59 PM


Re: sheesh!
So essentially you are dismissing belief as if humans alone are the arbitrator and definer of facts related to all reality.

Quite.

if God wanted humanity to believe based on evidence and facts, everyone would have no choice but to accept that God existed.

Quite.

The very fact that it is debateable(which it is) shows that the jury is out.

Debatable? What debatable? Reality vs superstition? There is no debate. Y'all lost that one centuries ago.

Simply the belief that a Creator of all seen and unseen who chose to make Itself known to humanity through a human messenger is itself not that crazy or off the wall simply because no facts or objective evidence arguably support it.

Yes it is off-the-wall crazy. That is what we have been talking about.

There are no facts or any objective evidence to support it. It is not rational. It is not real. It is off-the-wall crazy.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-28-2019 4:59 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17408
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 295 of 307 (863711)
09-29-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Thugpreacha
09-28-2019 4:59 PM


Re: sheesh!
Phat writes:

... if God wanted humanity to believe based on evidence and facts...


See the story of Thomas.

Phat writes:

...everyone would have no choice but to accept that God existed.


Why that a bad thing?

Phat writes:

Elaborate on what you specifically mean by empty beliefs.


Beliefs that are not anchored in reality are empty - e.g. belief in gods, fairies, etc. Belief in things like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster are thin but not completely empty. Belief in extraterrestrials is sensible enough, even without any evidence - biology makes them a near certainty; on the other hand, belief that they have visited earth is extremely thin but maybe not completely empty.

Phat writes:

If you start asserting that Jesus never existed, however, I would argue with you.


You say you "would" but you never do. Why don't you roll out an actual argument instead of just an empty assertion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-28-2019 4:59 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 2:59 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 296 of 307 (863712)
09-29-2019 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by ringo
09-29-2019 2:39 PM


Re: sheesh!
You've referred to the story of Thomas a few times recently as an example of Jesus' giving evidence of His resurrection. Quite right. It's meant to persuade all of us, not just Thomas. Any explanation why it doesn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 2:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 3:04 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17408
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 297 of 307 (863714)
09-29-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
09-29-2019 2:59 PM


Re: sheesh!
Faith writes:

You've referred to the story of Thomas a few times recently as an example of Jesus' giving evidence of His resurrection. Quite right. It's meant to persuade all of us, not just Thomas. Any explanation why it doesn't?


I don't see how it could persuade all of us, since we haven't seen the evidence that Thomas and the other disciples saw - so it can't be "meant" to persuade all of us. Whatever was meant, what it does do is underline the importance of evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 2:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 3:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 298 of 307 (863722)
09-29-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
09-29-2019 3:04 PM


Re: sheesh!
If it wasn't evidence of his resurrection it wasn't evidence at all for Thomas or anyone. But if it was evidence of the resurrection for them then it is evidence of the resurrection for us too and that was the whole point of the story, just as it is the point of the whole Bible, to show us the reality of God. Those who discredit it destroy their own hope of knowing God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 3:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 3:54 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17408
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 299 of 307 (863723)
09-29-2019 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
09-29-2019 3:46 PM


Re: sheesh!
Faith writes:

If it wasn't evidence of his resurrection it wasn't evidence at all for Thomas or anyone. But if it was evidence of the resurrection for them then it is evidence of the resurrection for us too...


It was only evidence for those who saw it. Jesus took the evidence with Him when He ascended to heaven so it is no longer available to any of us. It can not be the point of the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 3:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 4:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 300 of 307 (863728)
09-29-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
09-29-2019 3:54 PM


Re: sheesh!
What spurious reasoning. In other words you can never believe anything anyone ever tells you about something you haven't seen. I guess you don't want to come right out and say they're lying or the story was made up since you do claim it was evidence for THEM, however crazy such an idea is if it isn't also evidence for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 3:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 09-29-2019 4:18 PM Faith has responded

    
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