The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.

And yet you have said that the supernatural..if it exists...is untestable. Thus no evidence. You managed to get around this dissonance by logically concluding that GOD if GOD exists, does not pick and choose only some. He essentially saves everybody. AZPaul3 claims that there is nothing to justify a belief. Ironically, his may be the rational conclusion...but that does not make it a reality. Remember the construct?

Because we study, analyse and understand facts. If there are no facts to study then there is nothing there to understand. Humanity has shown us that one does not need any reason, sufficient or otherwise, to believe the most off-the-wall crazyness. Religion is an excellent example.

You're messing up the metaphor - it should be half empty and half full. Notice that the reality is the same in both cases; only the attitude is different. I'm not saying empty is better for society. Getting rid of the empty beliefs would be better for society.

So very true. Such as man-caused global warming.

Are you paid by Big Carbon to be a shill? Is that how you supplement your retirement?

They aren't doing well by me I must say since they haven't provided me with a car for my work. Of course with my bad eyes they also need to supply a driver and that may exceed my value to them.

I remember the full construct Phat, not just the bumper sticker playground version. No, once again. I have said that no one has ever provided a model, mechanism, process, procedure or method to test the supernatural.And as long as there is no evidence of either Demons or Supernatural Evil no one has ever shown any reason anyone should worry about such fantasies.And yes, evidence should trump belief.

So essentially you are dismissing belief as if humans alone are the arbitrator and definer of facts related to all reality. I would argue that we are limited to known reality. Besides, if God wanted humanity to believe based on evidence and facts, everyone would have no choice but to accept that God existed. The very fact that it is debateable(which it is) shows that the jury is out. I will give you that religion can well be accused in part of being off the wall craziness. Simply the belief that a Creator of all seen and unseen who chose to make Itself known to humanity through a human messenger is itself not that crazy or off the wall simply because no facts or objective evidence arguably support it. Elaborate on what you specifically mean by empty beliefs. I would imagine that you would argue that the evidence shows that a global flood never happened. Faith would challenge that one but I don't have time nor concern for it. Ken Ham argues that without Genesis being literal, the whole belief falls apart. I disagree with that too. If you start asserting that Jesus never existed, however, I would argue with you. One of my off the wall beliefs is that we are basically in a spiritual war in the known and unknown worlds around us. No objective evidence so far, though...so we come to jar. That's sensible to you for several reasons. First, you believe that God chooses everyone and that we don't start out damned. You arrived at this belief through logic. Second, you feel that source is irrelevant and that the content of our character and our charged and willful actions during our lives is what really matters...what we do vs what we could have done. Explain why what the apologists market...namely the "I Am Saved" Christianity is disgusting and pitiful. We still should have responsibility. I'll never forget years ago when I was facing overwhelming bankruptcy debts that you wanted me to pay them all off even if it prevented me from accepting forgiveness from the court. You mentioned that otherwise, everyone would have to pay MY debt. To you, the responsibility was necessary even if it hurt. I chose the other route. I have no regrets and no guilt over having placed my burden on society. Seems like I embraced "get out of responsibility" Christianity as a solution. The result? I no longer gamble and am debt-free. Had I listened to you I would be poor and broke nearly until I died. What is sad and pitiful is that you see no problem with that. Something about an honor system. Which strokes your own ego.

Quite. Quite. Debatable? What debatable? Reality vs superstition? There is no debate. Y'all lost that one centuries ago. Yes it is off-the-wall crazy. That is what we have been talking about.There are no facts or any objective evidence to support it. It is not rational. It is not real. It is off-the-wall crazy.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

See the story of Thomas. Why that a bad thing? Beliefs that are not anchored in reality are empty - e.g. belief in gods, fairies, etc. Belief in things like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster are thin but not completely empty. Belief in extraterrestrials is sensible enough, even without any evidence - biology makes them a near certainty; on the other hand, belief that they have visited earth is extremely thin but maybe not completely empty. You say you "would" but you never do. Why don't you roll out an actual argument instead of just an empty assertion?

You've referred to the story of Thomas a few times recently as an example of Jesus' giving evidence of His resurrection. Quite right. It's meant to persuade all of us, not just Thomas. Any explanation why it doesn't?

I don't see how it could persuade all of us, since we haven't seen the evidence that Thomas and the other disciples saw - so it can't be "meant" to persuade all of us. Whatever was meant, what it does do is underline the importance of evidence.

If it wasn't evidence of his resurrection it wasn't evidence at all for Thomas or anyone. But if it was evidence of the resurrection for them then it is evidence of the resurrection for us too and that was the whole point of the story, just as it is the point of the whole Bible, to show us the reality of God. Those who discredit it destroy their own hope of knowing God.

It was only evidence for those who saw it. Jesus took the evidence with Him when He ascended to heaven so it is no longer available to any of us. It can not be the point of the story.

What spurious reasoning. In other words you can never believe anything anyone ever tells you about something you haven't seen. I guess you don't want to come right out and say they're lying or the story was made up since you do claim it was evidence for THEM, however crazy such an idea is if it isn't also evidence for us.