Random or just incomplete information?

Randomness does not rescue free will - if indeed it needs rescuing - there's nothing more "free" about being determined by a dice roll than a rigid law.

I agree with Mr Jack. Without wanting to start the Great Free Will Debate all over again, the way I see it "free will" means that my actions are determined --- by the state of my brain, i.e. by me. Adding a random factor in there doesn't make my will more free, but, if anything, less so.

What you are describing is simply determinism.The Bohm interpretation allows determination while still complying with the Bell inequalities. As best as I understand the explanation, you would need to know the state of the entire universe in order to completely determine a quantum system. It seems to me that any causation that could be extracted from this formulation would be completely unconventional. It would still be impossible to learn when an atom was going to decay by probing deeply into the 'innards' of the nucleus.

Is that different from what I said?

Did you mean for the 'machine' in your pin ball example to refer to the configuration of the entire universe? If not, then what we said was not the same. Your example says only that the pin ball machine is deterministic.

Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.

Is the non-local behaviour explained by some type of sub manifold that is folded up within the configuration space?

Are we still talking about pinball machines?

Perhaps then my comment can be read as pointing out that you did not say anything about the details you now mention, nor could your post be easily interpreted as implying them.Your example simply mentioned knowing the state of the 'machine' and the balls. What distinguishes that statement from a description of classical mechanics?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

I guess classical mechanics would be more akin to the balls bouncing about on a flat featureless plane. But perhaps I am overextending the metaphor.

Maybe not. I see where you are going with it. I imagine a machine where the position and action of the bumpers represents non-locality as opposed to the standard machine where the bumpers are where they are and do pretty much standard stuff when a ball hits them. On the other hand you imagine just having bumpers at all as providing distinction from classical behavior. Not sure there's anything wrong with your approach.I admit to not understanding the Bohm interpretation well enough to comment any further and the reading I've done since you posted on the topic hasn't seemed to provide me with much insight. All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation, but critiquing it on any substantial basis isn't something I can do.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Well, there's also the fact that the machine's invisible ... Well, yes, but ... what's Bohm's doing, it seems to me, is shifting the weirdness of quantum theory about. Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, his take on things seems downright mundane. Of course, that's not a reason to believe it, but on the other hand one can't write it off just because non-local fields are whacky when the alternative sounds like a physicist took too much acid.

Aren't entangled particles evidence of non-local forces?

I find it difficult to wrap my head around quantum entanglement, and super luminosity. Being a layperson and not having the math backround I can only rely on analogies and comparisons.From the last thread we discussed about determinism and randomness, I was under the impression the universe is both.At the most fundamental level things do just happen without causes.As Chaz said in Blades of Glory "It bottles the mind."

God wills it!I guess that it bothers me because for everything else in the universe -

quote:

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When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

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I would say that things acting without cause would be a good example of supernatural behaviour.