Why debate?

Penguin, I was raised a CHRISTIAN. I have had more years of religious instruction than you have had years of LIFE. I went to Bible classes. I read the Bible. I had faith. I believed in Christ.Of course, I was never a creationist, so my lack of faith has nothing to do with my acceptance of the evidence for evolution.
--i wouldnt have thought so, and didntSee, my denomination did not require me to ignore science.
--none doApparently, your non-acceptance of the evidence for evolution is based upon nothing more than plain, garden variety ignorance.
--or the fact that weve never seen it happen? maybe thats it, i mean geez.Also, the intolerant, arrogant attitude you display towards anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do is precisely what the Taliban is all about. That's what allowed the Spanish inquisition, the Crusades, the ethnic genocide in the Balkans, and the terrorism in Ireland and between Israel and Palestine to happen.
--wars are horrible and their all based on religious beliefs because everyone thinks theres is right. God hates religious wars and even religion for that part.I am sorry that this is a tough one for you, but it is most certainly a attitude that you share with the Taliban and others, and it is dangerous.
--okay, you rape monkeys like all other scientists. im not even in the same religion or belief system as the taliban. schraf messing with nature is dangerous as well.Do not complain that you get jumped on for not knowing about scientific theories and evidence if you are going to make claims such as "evolution doesn't happen", or "evolution is just an idea, not really a theory". These are claims which are demonstrably false and if you can't back them up, you shouldn't make them.
---can you show me evolution occuring?This is a debate club, not a "let's all share our opinions and treat them equally" club.
--- correct, your opinion is wrong though ------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
4)that tolerance is just a way of convincing more people and making them look better. it is also kinda funny how so many religions are antijew, poor them.

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Not quite KP in the Koran it is explicitly mentioned that Isa (Jesus) will return to earth, fight the anti-christ and christians will convert to Islam....Thus from an Islamic perspective christians are fine, they don`t need to be converted because the Koran foretells their redemption....Christianity on the other hand says what its adherents believe is right and everyone who believes anything else goes straight to hell....IOW Islam is more tollerant of different sects than christianity....

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

--or the fact that weve never seen it happen? maybe thats it, i mean geez.

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1/ KP, does the ToE predict you will see macroevolution? Yes or no? If no, why do you think not being able to see it constitutes a falsification. We call it a straw man, destroying something that the theory never predicted anyway.2/ You've never seen God either, but you believe in him/her/it. How do you deal with such a dichotomy, intellectually? How do you rationalise that we MUST see evolution, & if not, it's false, but accept the bible as fact, minus ANY evidence of its supernatural Godliness?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

exactly just because you cant and havent observed it doesnt mean it doesnt occur and that it doesnt exist.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

"1/ KP, does the ToE predict you will see macroevolution? Yes or no? If no, why do you think not being able to see it constitutes a falsification. We call it a straw man, destroying something that the theory never predicted anyway."
--No, but there should be good evidence showing that a mechenism can bring about macro-evolution through time. (Unfortunatelly I don't have the knowledge to argue that this point is a fallacy in Evolution ) But this is true.------------------

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"1/ KP, does the ToE predict you will see macroevolution? Yes or no? If no, why do you think not being able to see it constitutes a falsification. We call it a straw man, destroying something that the theory never predicted anyway."
--No, but there should be good evidence showing that a mechenism can bring about macro-evolution through time. (Unfortunatelly I don't have the knowledge to argue that this point is a fallacy in Evolution ) But this is true.

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There is, but due to the time scale for large changes, they are not going to be observed in our lifetimes.So it isn't true.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-18-2002]

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-18-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
exactly just because you cant and havent observed it doesnt mean it doesnt occur and that it doesnt exist.

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Evolution has evidence, the supernatural does not. Why do you believe the position with the lack of evidence, rather than to subscribe to the one that does have it?And your answer, wasn't.My questions were :1/ KP, does the ToE predict you will see macroevolution? Yes or no? If no, why do you think not being able to see it constitutes a falsification. We call it a straw man, destroying something that the theory never predicted anyway.2/ You've never seen God either, but you believe in him/her/it. How do you deal with such a dichotomy, intellectually? How do you rationalise that we MUST see evolution, & if not, it's false, but accept the bible as fact, minus ANY evidence of its supernatural Godliness?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-18-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"1/ KP, does the ToE predict you will see macroevolution? Yes or no? If no, why do you think not being able to see it constitutes a falsification. We call it a straw man, destroying something that the theory never predicted anyway."
--No, but there should be good evidence showing that a mechenism can bring about macro-evolution through time. (Unfortunatelly I don't have the knowledge to argue that this point is a fallacy in Evolution ) But this is true.

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TC: Just to avoid the possibility that you will once again wiggle out from a direct question, I'd like you to answer two simple Yes/No questions for me:1. Do you believe speciation occurs?2. Do you believe there is a barrier that prevents change in higher (i.e., above species level) taxa?Once you have answered these, we can go on from there. (I don't want discussion yet, just yes or no).

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See, my denomination did not require me to ignore science.
--none do

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Yes, they most certainly do. When Biblical interpretation is stated to be inerrant in all matters scientific, historic, etc, what do you call it?

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Apparently, your non-acceptance of the evidence for evolution is based upon nothing more than plain, garden variety ignorance.
--or the fact that weve never seen it happen? maybe thats it, i mean geez.

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There is LOTS of evidence in support of evolution. You declaring, "Oh, it doesn't happen, see?" is hardly convincing. Read these links, attempt to understand them, and come back here with SPECIFIC criticisms: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

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Also, the intolerant, arrogant attitude you display towards anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do is precisely what the Taliban is all about. That's what allowed the Spanish inquisition, the Crusades, the ethnic genocide in the Balkans, and the terrorism in Ireland and between Israel and Palestine to happen.
--wars are horrible and their all based on religious beliefs because everyone thinks theres is right. God hates religious wars and even religion for that part.

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So, do you agree with me that your stated belief that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your belief is wrong is similar to these other groups?As for God hating war...have you read the Old Testament? God orders lots of war, and is quite bloodthirsty and cruel. He orders people to kill children and ravish women.

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I am sorry that this is a tough one for you, but it is most certainly a attitude that you share with the Taliban and others, and it is dangerous.
--okay, you rape monkeys like all other scientists. im not even in the same religion or belief system as the taliban. schraf messing with nature is dangerous as well.

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Look, you share the tendency to believe that your religious beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong. So does the Taliban. It is an intolerant, narrow view, and if such people were allowed to run the government America would be a very different place.

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Do not complain that you get jumped on for not knowing about scientific theories and evidence if you are going to make claims such as "evolution doesn't happen", or "evolution is just an idea, not really a theory". These are claims which are demonstrably false and if you can't back them up, you shouldn't make them.
---can you show me evolution occuring?

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Check out the links above.[/B][/QUOTE]------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
okay, you rape monkeys like all other scientists. im not even in the same religion or belief system as the taliban. schraf messing with nature is dangerous as well.

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WTF are you talking about scientists raping monkeys for KP?

Min, here I would hedge my bets that you are wrong. I left ICR when the issue of the meaning of information came up and was distressed to see the way the participants at true seekers only wish true to seek a story rather about paleo termites so when I got here i found that indeed as Joe, suggests we can get somewhere other sites do not becuase of CGI rather than MSN and I am confident that the psyhology of knowledge representation that dictates how some software development is currently worked can be channgeld in part by metrics developed out of the "debate". It requries however not a lone system administrator but a social reconciliation of creation and evolution as practiced today (for instance in ID Natrual History felt it was OK to post 3 IDs with 3 rebuttals Plus an end piece AND a philosphical post-script. This hardly seems fair when one compares that it is easier to write for the evolution than the creation sides. But again I believe a certain amount of present polarization can be infrasturctured out such that some thing other than resistant heat is the result. We will see whose opinion is more correct with time and restraint by hackers out of the input they ideed recieve when not otherwise moderated.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
Evolutionist, why do you enjoy debating creationists?

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I have debated christian creationists on a Norwegian website continually for more than one month before the debate finally ran out and it was great fun. It is also very facinating to se that adult and presumably well-functioning people can believe something as ludicrous as a global flood, a 6000 yo earth, dinosaurs walking the earth with humans and so on. It is even more interesting when they try to present arguments to support their views and fail miserably (though they rarely admit or acknowledge that).The Norwegian creationists are mostly religously motivated and argued with Bible quotes and there was rarely serious attempts to attack evolution scientifically. I hope to find a more interesting opposition here.Of course there is a certain element of horror involved. It frightens me to know that so many people, many of which are well-educated, can actually believe that creationism can be considered a scientific disipline and that biological evolution has been refuted through science.The Arachnophile

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Originally posted by The Arachnophile:

Of course there is a certain element of horror involved. It frightens me to know that so many people, many of which are well-educated, can actually believe that creationism can be considered a scientific disipline and that biological evolution has been refuted through science.

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Just try an imagine how horrified I was to discover that there are people who still believe the earth is flat. *shudder*------------------
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