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Author Topic:   Think bigger think better.
paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 1 of 78 (505097)
04-07-2009 12:11 PM


American philosopher Wilfrid Sellars once said of philosophy that its aim is to 'understand how things in the broadest possible sense of the term hang together in the broadest possible sense of the term.'
The great philosophers [articus publishing].
........................

A firm foundation for the broadest of theories would be this, my statement:

*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process.

Immediately one is forced to look at the process of biological evolution with new eyes to see how the process fits in with the single process idea. My argument would be that what we have in the mainstream understanding of what counts as the only real type of 'evolution' [victorian slang term for biological evolution], counts as only a portion, a chapter of a much larger process.
........................

Where does the potential for evolution itself come from?
If one was to dispense with the use of one word victorian slang term, wipes nose on sleeve 'evolution', then the quetion becomes more precise.
Where does the potential for biological evolution come from?
As a broad question asking how anything that has complexity came into existence, the answer by experience is that it came from a most basic representation of itself.

If my 'single beginning single process' statement holds true then you cannot have 'natural selection' without accepting the evolution of the inorganic, the process of primordial evolution by means of primal selection.
..................

Shall we say that the big bang happened the Earth formed and then the process of modification descent by means of natural selection just magically kicked in?
That is the science of gaps, today's mainstream thinking would have it that way.
My way of thinking makes more sense, im a man who believes that evolution began with the big bang.
The big bang started a single process and that single process has moved through three punctuated chapters, from rock to flesh and blood and in to the minds of men. Dissection of the single path of evolution has been performed logically by use of *statements that i hold to be true. I use statements to hone my thinking in order to gain a train of thought, simply i lay down tracks.
................................
*It i the total difference in a phenomenon that makes it stand out.
In the case of evolution it is the type of material and the domain in which it operates.
Inorganic, organic, mind.
................................
Because the idea is new then there is no getting away from it, new labels and terms are needed to explain the theory. Innovation. Some thinkers [?] may have a problem with innovation.

The process of Primordial evolution by means of primal selection... Inorganic.
The process of Biological evolution by means of natural selection.... Organic.
The process of human mental evolution by means of conscious selection...Mind.
...............................

*Given breadth, when broadened out, evolution gains direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y

The process of primordial evolution, the evolution of the inorganic looks nothing like the process of biological evolution at first glance, if it did then there would be no need to separate the two. So unlike are the two types of evolution some may contend that the two are not related at all, if indeed that is the case then science is left with the problem of how you get something from nothing, or where did the mechanism of modification descent by means of natural election come from. Im attempting to answer that question by most simple logic, that is that modification descent and selection began with the big bang.

What is primal selection?
The answer is so simple it may rest as unsatisfactory to some, not sexy enough.
Difficult to acknowledge that inorganic force acting on inorganic material yields a selected result, but then that is how you get something from nothing.
The process of primordial evolution and biological evolution do share some similarities, that is, sometimes there is build and sometimes not.
A scenario of build that clearly shows modification descent by means of primal selection is the evolution of our solar system. Our solar system is a pocket of balance, its balance was not gained at its very first attempt, during the accretion process the plantesimals collided and jostled for position. Inorganic material was modified in spates of such interaction. Primordial evolution lacks the facility to store and pass on information in the exact same way that dna in biological evolution does. What is passed on within the sphere of inorganic evolution is the modified inorganic material itself.
.................................

In primordial evolution, as one might imagine the meaning of 'modification descent and selection' are regressed to there most basic meaning.
...............................

Proof of the exsistence of Primal selection by Triangulation.
Natural selection.
Consciouse selection.

paul.

Just when you think you know something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EdWgsTUhmI

...................

*When broadened out evolution gains direction.
What counts for good and bad must come out to play.
...................

Mine is not to demolish your undertanding of evolution, [wipes nose on sleeve] mine is to build upoin it.
...................

paul.

paul.

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Edited by paullesq, : A work in progress

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Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 78 (505150)
04-08-2009 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by paullesq
04-07-2009 12:11 PM


It might help people better understand your ideas if you defined primal selection. Can you edit that into your post, then post a note here so I know you're done and I'll take another look.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 3 of 78 (505158)
04-08-2009 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-08-2009 8:21 AM


Exscuse my dyslexia, my scrawl.
I hope i am making sense.
paul.
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Message 4 of 78 (505160)
04-08-2009 10:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1313 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 5 of 78 (505174)
04-08-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by paullesq
04-07-2009 12:11 PM


It sounds like you're saying that everything is evolving because everything is in a process of change from what it was to what it will be, whether it is biological or not. I think most of us evolutionists would agree with you.
This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1026 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 78 (505188)
04-08-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by paullesq
04-07-2009 12:11 PM


Mine is not to demolish your undertanding of evolution, [wipes nose on sleeve] mine is to build upoin it.

I really can't see, by reading what you wrote, where you are trying to do this.

I did find this:

So unlike are the two types of evolution some may contend that the two are not related at all, if indeed that is the case then science is left with the problem of how you get something from nothing

Abiogenesis, if that is what you are refering to, is simply studied in a different field of science from biological evolution.

They are related to each other as a studied field in science.

But, they are however studied by different professionals; as would be the difference between a Astrophysicist and a Theoretical physicist.

Im attempting to answer that question by most simple logic, that is that modification descent and selection began with the big bang.

No. Descent with modification and selection, in the biological sense, only "begins" when there are biological systems functioning with those mechanisms. The "begining" of biological systems is a grey area.

Now, if you are talking about the elements that make up the chemicals in inorganic materials, you would be closer to the correct answer with the Big Bang. Not so far back as the Big Bang, but a few hundred-thousand years after that.

- Oni


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 7 of 78 (505199)
04-08-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Perdition
04-08-2009 12:13 PM


Change, everything changes.
How could anyone disagree.
A cosy informal chat over the garden fence, we would be talking about 'change.'
Because i recognise that the mechanism of modification descent and selection is constantly at work, im saying that everything evolves...
To assert that everything changes is ok by me, you are not wrong, only in the same sense that a physicist can be accused of dabbling in a bit of maths that is, you would be absolutely right.

paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNZ0ClNhOyg


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Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 2990 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 8 of 78 (505207)
04-09-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by paullesq
04-08-2009 6:45 PM


Change, everything changes.
How could anyone disagree.

No one is disagreeing here. But evolution and natural selection are not the same thing. So when an astronomer is talking about the evolution of a star and a biologist is talking about the evolution of a species, they are both talking about change, but that mechanism is very, very different. This is why Darwin is not credited with coming up with the idea that animals may evolve; his own grandfather wrote about that.

It's also true that there is a kind of selection (if you can call it that, I'm stretching the definition for argument's sake) on abiotic matter: Those things that are the most structurally sound will last the longest. But still, this is not selection like natural selection, because natural selection (as defined by Darwin) cannot act on something that does not replicate itself. So again, a star may evolve (change), and certain stars may last longer than others of have a different final state (black hole vs. white dwarf), but this start cannot directly create another star, and so once it burns out that's it, it's specific structure and composition is no more.


We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely
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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 9 of 78 (505228)
04-09-2009 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
04-08-2009 4:31 PM


In a nut shell sir.

*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process.

The single process has moved through three punctuated phases. Although the three phases can be viewed and studied independently of each other they do blend together.
Abiogenisis is the blending/transitional period where one type of evolution becomes another.

Indeed it is my understanding that it is not the process of modification decent by means of selection that changes but rather the circumstances that the process finds itself in.

....................................................
Necessity is the mother of invention. [Plato]

Context = coherence.

The process of primordial evolution by means of primal selection. Red
The process of biological evolution by means of natural selection.Blue
The process of human mental evolution by intelligent selection. Yellow

The colours can be seen blending together so as to paint a picture, or they can be viewed seperatly naked on the pallete.

paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI

Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.


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Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 10 of 78 (505234)
04-09-2009 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by paullesq
04-09-2009 7:19 AM


Forum Guidelines Warning
Hi Paullesq,

The posting off-topic links violates two rules from the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.

  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

Please follow the Forum Guidelines by ceasing to post bare links with no accompanying elaboration and that are unrelated to the topic anyway. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 11 of 78 (505243)
04-09-2009 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by paullesq
04-09-2009 7:19 AM


Hello sir,

Where specifically does your off topic warning apply to my post.
Oni raised the question of abiogenisis, he suggested that what i think of as the 'Process of primordial evolution' was in fact abiogenesis. He even went so far as to attempt to stretch biogenesis back to the big bang rather than accept new terminology/a new process in principle. New labels and terms are difficult to accept and take on board, so much so that one might attempt to stretch a process further than it has legs.

My reply to onifre went some way into explaining where exactly i see abiogenesis as fitting in with the 'single beginning single process'
theory.
...........................................

Was it my use of the 3 primary colours as an additional tool for explaining the three chapters of evolution that caused me to get a warning.
..........................................

Or is it because i occasionally post music and film clips.
Music marks time, my mood and expression.
...........

paul.


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Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
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Message 12 of 78 (505246)
04-09-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by paullesq
04-09-2009 10:00 AM


Hi Paullesq,

Let me explain again. You're violating two rules from the Forum Guidelines, first by posting bare links with no elaboration, and second by posting off-toptic links. Here are the links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y (Peter Gabiel- Solsbury Hill)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EdWgsTUhmI (Dead Poets Society-3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNZ0ClNhOyg (Carly Simon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI (Starry Starry Night)

Please do not post bare links without elaboration, and please do not post off-topic links. The Forum Guidelines are very specific about this. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1026 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 78 (505295)
04-09-2009 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by paullesq
04-09-2009 7:19 AM


The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process.

Yes, but this is a laymen interpretation of the Big Bang. In science the Big Bang does not represent a "beginning", it is just the moment of the cosmological expansion, but prior to that moment, the "universe" existed in another form. So no actual "starting point" can be claimed at the Big Bang.

The single process has moved through three punctuated phases. Although the three phases can be viewed and studied independently of each other they do blend together.

I can agree with that.

Abiogenisis is the blending/transitional period where one type of evolution becomes another.

Indeed it is my understanding that it is not the process of modification decent by means of selection that changes but rather the circumstances that the process finds itself in.

....................................................
Necessity is the mother of invention. [Plato]

Context = coherence.

The process of primordial evolution by means of primal selection. Red
The process of biological evolution by means of natural selection.Blue
The process of human mental evolution by intelligent selection. Yellow

The colours can be seen blending together so as to paint a picture, or they can be viewed seperatly naked on the pallete.

All this is cool.

Don't mean to be rude, Paul, but whats your point? :rolleyes:

Are you trying to talk about the emergence of consciousness, or something like that?

Sorry, but I'm not following.......

- Oni


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
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paullesq 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 43
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 14 of 78 (505320)
04-10-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Admin
04-09-2009 11:05 AM


Hello sir,
Re warning:
It is a most difficult task to get people to think and consider anything new, by showing the film clip from dead poets society hopefully some were inspired to think a little deeper instead of dismissing my ideas off hand. So i make no apologies for that clip.

However, i understand your position with regard to this matter and i shall not post any bare links without elaborating on why i have posted them.

paul.

The big bang and its timeline as the plug and the cable, the Earth a circuit board and you the transistor.
What noise shall you make, what song shall you sing.

Edited by paullesq, : No reason given.


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Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 15 of 78 (505325)
04-10-2009 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by paullesq
04-10-2009 7:45 AM


Hi Paullesq,

Moderators try avoid discussions about issues related to the Forum Guidelines in the discussion threads. I've replied to you over at the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread, please see Message 89.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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