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Author Topic:   Creationism in Schools
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 116 (5765)
02-28-2002 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by LudvanB
02-28-2002 12:01 AM


"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=dan+4:10-11"
Daniel 4
10 As to the visions of my head on my bed, I was looking, and lo, a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height [is] great:
11 become great hath the tree, yea, strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to the end of the whole land;
--It says 'end of the whole land', not world, Now where was he standing? Who knows, it was a vision, not an event in the first place.

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=mat+4:8"
--See last post.

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1+chr+16:30"
--Moved out of where? Too vague to be evident of the argument in either direction.

30 Be pained before Him, all the earth:
31 Also, established is the world, It is not moved! The heavens rejoice, and the earth is glad, And they say among nations: Jehovah hath reigned.

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=psa+93:1"
--Likewize.

--Now obviously you would not consider these ones would you? :

YLT-
Psalm 77:18
The voice of Thy thunder [is] in the spheres, Lightnings have lightened the world, The earth hath trembled, yea, it shaketh.

21st Century NKJV-
Amos 9:6 Amos 9 Amos 9:5-7 It is He that buildeth His spheres in the heaven, and hath founded His troop on the earth. He that calleth for the waters of the sea and poureth them out upon the face of the earth--the LORD is His name.

--From an earlier post of mine:

quote:

YLT-
Isaiah 40:22 - He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants [are] as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

--This passage deals with 'the circle of the earth', now we must as the question, who is writting this? Was it God or was it a person? It was a person speaking of God sitting above the circle of the earth. Now since it is a person trying to attribute characteristics to the earth, we must take it from his point of view. Did he know the earth was a sphere? I doubt it that he was positive unless he was told something that I don't think was written in the bible. What do we see when we look accross the ocean? We don't see a perfectly flat horizon as we would see on a flat earth, we see it bending as if it were a circle of the horizon. Also if he somehow had a vision of the earth from space, we would also see a circle, as we only see 2 dementions, we perceive 3 dementions. And thus, 'the circle of the earth' is completely accurate using sphere or circle in context.


------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by LudvanB, posted 02-28-2002 12:01 AM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by joz, posted 02-28-2002 12:23 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 79 by LudvanB, posted 02-28-2002 12:49 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 84 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2002 11:07 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 116 (5766)
02-28-2002 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by TrueCreation
02-28-2002 12:15 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Now obviously you would not consider these ones would you? :

YLT-
Psalm 77:18
The voice of Thy thunder [is] in the spheres, Lightnings have lightened the world, The earth hath trembled, yea, it shaketh.

21st Century NKJV-
Amos 9:6 Amos 9 Amos 9:5-7 It is He that buildeth His spheres in the heaven, and hath founded His troop on the earth. He that calleth for the waters of the sea and poureth them out upon the face of the earth the LORD is His name.


I hate to mention this bud but mention of spheres in a cosmological context has connotations of the ptolmaic model (from which we get the term music of the spheres)....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by TrueCreation, posted 02-28-2002 12:15 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 116 (5767)
02-28-2002 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by TrueCreation
02-28-2002 12:15 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=dan+4:10-11"
Daniel 4
10 As to the visions of my head on my bed, I was looking, and lo, a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height [is] great:
11 become great hath the tree, yea, strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to the end of the whole land;
--It says 'end of the whole land', not world, Now where was he standing? Who knows, it was a vision, not an event in the first place.

LUD:Excuse me TC but this is what the quotation says...
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the EARTH, and the height thereof was great.
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the EARTH:

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=mat+4:8"
--See last post.

LUD:Same here
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the WORLD, and the glory of them;

Where do you get then "land" word exactly...none of the translations uses it and especially not the KJV,the YEC bible of choice(all the quotes i just pasted are KJV)

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=1+chr+16:30"
--Moved out of where? Too vague to be evident of the argument in either direction.

LUD:Move where? moved anywhere. It cannot be moved...thats rather hard to interpret this as meaning anything other that "the world is not moving"...which is quite innacurate,as you may or may not know...i wouldn't consider an object hurtling at 29.8km/sec in space as "something that cant be moved"

30 Be pained before Him, all the earth:
31 Also, established is the world, It is not moved! The heavens rejoice, and the earth is glad, And they say among nations: Jehovah hath reigned.

"http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=psa+93:1"
--Likewize.

LUD:likewise what? It is not moved...whats the hell is unclear about this? IT DOESN'T MOVE!!! Thats what it says.

--Now obviously you would not consider these ones would you? :

LUD:I'll consider anything you present me TC

YLT-
Psalm 77:18
The voice of Thy thunder [is] in the spheres, Lightnings have lightened the world, The earth hath trembled, yea, it shaketh.

LUD: Spheres? i suppose you want me to believe that they are refering to the world...in plural? As for the shaking,thats actually the crux of it...the Hebrew believed that nothing that happened to the planet that God was not directly doing himself so its ok when GOD shakes the earth with his voice because its God...but it cant move otherwise.

21st Century NKJV-
Amos 9:6 Amos 9 Amos 9:5-7 It is He that buildeth His spheres in the heaven, and hath founded His troop on the earth. He that calleth for the waters of the sea and poureth them out upon the face of the earth--the LORD is His name.

LUD:The NKJV? come on TC...thats getting desperate...the thing was completely re-writen with knowledge of today's science in an effort to try and convince(read fool) casual readers that the original autors of the Bible knew as much about the world as we do today. Its obviously very dishonest of them and of you to try to use this...what does the OLD KJV says exactly?



This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by TrueCreation, posted 02-28-2002 12:15 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 116 (5795)
02-28-2002 10:18 AM


The issue is cut and dry. Creationism depends on the existence of god, and His existence is untestable. therefore, one must have faith in his existence.

If creationism is a faith-held belief, it is religious, and furthermore unscientific.

this is important because

a) it is unconstitutional to teach religious faiths and beliefs in a literal sensein public institutions

and

b) because creationism is based on faith and not science, it cannot be taught as such.

What do you tell the Muslim who claims the Qu'ran is historically accurate and the Bible is false? Do you tell him that America is Christian, and if you don't like that, tough?

no

if this Muclim is a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen, he is entitled to the same rights as any white historian. He is also considered a legal American, a Muslim American I might add.

To teach creationism as fact in public institutions would define America/americans as Christian... what do you say to that Muslim American now? And the Jew... And the Chinese, Korean, Atheist, African, etc, etc, etc.

The US and its citizens are not defined by the religion they practice. That is layed down in the constitution. Any American is entitled to his right to freeely practice his or her relgion. ANY AMERICAN...

It is quite simple, or at least to the rational person...


  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 116 (5797)
02-28-2002 10:19 AM


I simply don't see how someone could argue that a religion should be taught in a public school as fact... it is really beyond me...
  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 116 (5799)
02-28-2002 10:26 AM


quote:
hmmm i am a chritian... i do not belive in evolution... therefore if you teach one but not the other you have disfranchised my belive which is protected by the constitution...

teach bothe or noe!


LOL!!! You are not entitled to the right to practice your religious beliefs in public institutions. you can do so in a church or private school, but not in a public school...

evolution is not taught because people believe in it... it is taught because anyone of any faith can believe in it... if you choose not to... tough... but don't make children (like me) have to learn your stiffling and faith-held beliefs in sdience... keep religion where it belongs- chruch...


  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 116 (5801)
02-28-2002 10:39 AM


quote:
ummm first amendment of the constitution: "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or....."
it all depends on how you interpert these few words...

evolution is a scientific theory... so was neptunism at it's time... so was cathastrophianism...

i know i know the last two were proven wrong beyond a doubth... but how do we know evolution won't be proven worng?


if evolution is disproved, then science will find a new theory... until then, we're gonna teach evolution...

as for interpreting the constitution, well, there is no room for interpreting the first amendment, per se.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

I suppose you were refering to this statement... this is not open to interpretation... it means quite plainly that the government may not restrict the PRIVATE practice of religion, but may restrict religious groups from teaching religious faiths in PUBLIC institutions. put simply, religious groups are NOT free to practice their religions in publicly funded institutions.

sing and pray your heart away, but do so in a proper and private institution.


  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 960 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 84 of 116 (5805)
02-28-2002 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by TrueCreation
02-28-2002 12:15 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
YLT - Psalm 77:18 The voice of Thy thunder [is] in the spheres,

21st Century NKJV- Amos 9:6 Amos 9 Amos 9:5-7 It is He that buildeth His spheres in the heaven, and hath founded His troop on the earth.


At Psalm 77:18 the KJV says "heaven" for the Hebrew GALGAL, which modern versions give as "whirlwind" (LB, ML, RSV, NIV, NKJV);
Jerusalem Bible says, "as it rolled".
GALGAL is otherwise translated "wheel" and "rolling thing".
The poetic use of this imagery continues in our expression - "rolling thunder."

At Amos 9:6, KJV says, "stories" from the Hebrew MAALAH which the KJV most often translates as "degrees", "steps", or "stairs". Modern versions render it -
"vaults" (Modern Language Bible);
"upper stories" (Living Bible);
"upper chambers" (Revised Standard Version);
"high dwelling place" (Jerusalem Bible);
"lofty place" (New International Version).
The NKJV (not to be confused with the 21st Century NKJV), says,
"He who builds His layers in the sky, and has founded His strata in the earth ..."
This, I think, is the best translation to date.

Hope this helps to clarify the unlikely use of the word "spheres" in these contexts.

------------------
Bachelor of Arts - Loma Linda University
Major - Biology; Minor - Religion
Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine
Embryology - La Sierra University
Biblical languages - Pacific Union College
Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by TrueCreation, posted 02-28-2002 12:15 AM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by gene90, posted 02-28-2002 11:13 AM doctrbill has not yet responded
 Message 86 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2002 12:25 AM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 2018 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 85 of 116 (5806)
02-28-2002 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by doctrbill
02-28-2002 11:07 AM


From planets to galaxies, eh?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2002 11:07 AM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 116 (5945)
03-02-2002 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by doctrbill
02-28-2002 11:07 AM


"Hope this helps to clarify the unlikely use of the word "spheres" in these contexts."
--Thanx, yes it was informitive to me

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2002 11:07 AM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Theo, posted 03-02-2002 1:13 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
Theo
Inactive Junior Member


Message 87 of 116 (5957)
03-02-2002 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by TrueCreation
03-02-2002 12:25 AM


Please see my posts (#'s 49 & 65)in the other topic 'Separation of Church & State Quesiton 2,' wherein I cite Justice Rehnquists expostion on the issue wherein he demonstrates that historically it is clear that christianity can be practiced in and on publically funded property.

As well before anyone starts quibbling about old testament wording claiming ignorantly as LudvanB did that 'thats what it says' a lesson in exegesis is necessary. 1)The old testament was written in Hebrew thousands of years ago and 2)you have to take into account the audience of the time. When done so one finds that it is proper to translate the Hebrew word as sphere's and that the biblical text predates Ptolemic views. This is another example of strawmen fallacies committed by those committed to their particular world view instead of real inquiry. They didn't examine both sides and the evidence of each before stating conclusions. Very bad scholarship indeed

------------------
theo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2002 12:25 AM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2002 1:19 AM Theo has not yet responded
 Message 89 by LudvanB, posted 03-02-2002 1:23 AM Theo has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 116 (5959)
03-02-2002 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theo
03-02-2002 1:13 AM


"As well before anyone starts quibbling about old testament wording claiming ignorantly as LudvanB did that 'thats what it says' a lesson in exegesis is necessary. 1)The old testament was written in Hebrew thousands of years ago and 2)you have to take into account the audience of the time. When done so one finds that it is proper to translate the Hebrew word as sphere's and that the biblical text predates Ptolemic views. This is another example of strawmen fallacies committed by those committed to their particular world view instead of real inquiry. They didn't examine both sides and the evidence of each before stating conclusions. Very bad scholarship indeed"
--I find many of the arguments, particularely the mention of the 'circle of the earth', as proposed by some, great evidence of a spherical earth. As this circle of the earth would be non-existant if the earth were not spherical.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Theo, posted 03-02-2002 1:13 AM Theo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by gene90, posted 03-02-2002 1:54 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 116 (5960)
03-02-2002 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theo
03-02-2002 1:13 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Theo:
Please see my posts (#'s 49 & 65)in the other topic 'Separation of Church & State Quesiton 2,' wherein I cite Justice Rehnquists expostion on the issue wherein he demonstrates that historically it is clear that christianity can be practiced in and on publically funded property.

As well before anyone starts quibbling about old testament wording claiming ignorantly as LudvanB did that 'thats what it says' a lesson in exegesis is necessary. 1)The old testament was written in Hebrew thousands of years ago and 2)you have to take into account the audience of the time. When done so one finds that it is proper to translate the Hebrew word as sphere's and that the biblical text predates Ptolemic views. This is another example of strawmen fallacies committed by those committed to their particular world view instead of real inquiry. They didn't examine both sides and the evidence of each before stating conclusions. Very bad scholarship indeed


even if the word could be translated in sphere,which its not but let say for the sake of argument that it can...that would simply mean a contradiction,since there exists no mountain where you can climb to see all the scatered kingdoms around a sphere...and there were kingdoms on other continents at the time of Jesus...the Chinese,the africans,the Aztech,the Mayans...they would all have had to be included in the "all the Kingdoms of the world" thats supposadly could be seen from this mountain top.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Theo, posted 03-02-2002 1:13 AM Theo has not yet responded

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 2018 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 90 of 116 (6000)
03-02-2002 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by TrueCreation
03-02-2002 1:19 AM


[QUOTE][b]I find many of the arguments, particularely the mention of the 'circle of the earth', as proposed by some, great evidence of a spherical earth. As this circle of the earth would be non-existant if the earth were not spherical.[/QUOTE]

[/b]

Circles are flat.

Theo, if current translations of the OT are so ambiguous and may not mean the same in English as they did in Hebrew how can you have faith in the literal interpretation of Genesis? To claim that a passage that, in English, apparently implies that the Earth is flat is either mistranslated or simplified for a primitive audience, and then claim that several chapters of Genesis are literally correct in their current form is inconsistent.

[This message has been edited by gene90, 03-02-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by TrueCreation, posted 03-02-2002 1:19 AM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 116 (6012)
03-02-2002 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by gene90
03-02-2002 1:54 PM


"Circles are flat."
--Not when seen in this light:

------------------

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 03-02-2002]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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