Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8913 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-24-2019 11:50 AM
38 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,597 Year: 9,633/19,786 Month: 2,055/2,119 Week: 91/724 Day: 23/68 Hour: 2/11


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4Next
Author Topic:   The Great Compromise
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 58 (421521)
09-13-2007 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ihategod
09-12-2007 6:16 PM


Re: SICKO
If God made death and suffering as a mechanism to bring about life, he is reservered words far worse than sick and perverted.

Whereas if he made death and suffering and they have no such consequences ... is that OK?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 6:16 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3522
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 32 of 58 (421595)
09-13-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Utrimque
09-12-2007 8:12 PM


Equally correct, not equally probable.
Utrimque writes:

It's like saying the paint is white because it reflects most of the light hitting it or saying it is white because that is the color the artist chose, in some peoples mind only the former is true, and other refuse that light is involved. I'm saying I view both as equally correct statements and that neither negates the other, not that the artist existence affects the fact that white paint reflects light.

I like your analogy. I also don't see any problem with religion and science. As you've defined them, anyway. I'm just not sure that your analogy correctly displays what we are able to witness in reality. Let's start with what we both agree with, your definitions:

Evolution: The creation of new types organisms by a complex series of genetic modifications and natural selection.

Creationism: The creation of the universe and all thats in it by god(s for you polytheistic types)

In their most basic sense it means that god created the universe, big bang, and all of its/his/her laws are merely tools for making sure that every thing runs smoothly.

I agree with everything you've said here. Well, your ideas, at least. I would rename what you've labelled as "Creationism" to be "Theism", but that's just semantic nit-picking. To me, Creationism carries a lot more baggage than simply the belief that God began the universe. We'll use your definitions anyway, though.

Now, getting into where I start to disagree:

Would it be so overreaching to assume that god created the universe in such a way that with the laws as he created, (physics, gravity, magnetism, chemistry, ect.), to cause the big bang to unfurl in such a way that it would create the earth and know that intelligent life would spring up in an exact way? (God is omnipotent after all.)

I actually agree that there's nothing contradictory to this view from what we can witness here in current reality. My disagreement comes from the equality you're giving this Creationist view with the Evolutionary view. I agree that both views have nothing contradictory to what we can witness in current reality (they are "equally correct"). But we have reason to believe that Evolution occurs. We can witness it, and see it happening. We can see the affect it has on resulting species, and we can predict how it works. The Creationist view has none of this. Sure, there's nothing contradictory about it, but what's our reason for thinking it's actually a part of reality?

Which brings me to the problem I have with your paint analogy. Lets look at the two statements:

"it's white because it reflects most of the light hitting it"
A true statement. The wall is white, and we understand this because of how much light is reflected.

"it is white because that is the color the artist chose"
Another true statment... if there was in fact an artist that chose the colour. What tells us that the wall isn't simply naturally white to begin with? If there was an artist, then yes, this statement is perfectly valid, and doesn't contradict the other statement. If there wasn't an artist, then this statement is wrong, although it still doesn't contradict the wall being white. With the wall in your analogy, we can see if the wall is naturally white, or if it's been painted. With reality, we are currently unable to determine if we were created by a "painter" or if we're simply natural.

That's where I disagree with your ideas. I agree that the 2 ideas of religion and science are equally correct. However, until you can show anything that implies the necessity of religion with respect to our origins... it is not equally probable as the science we witness every day, it just simply doesn't contradict it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Utrimque, posted 09-12-2007 8:12 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

    
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 33 of 58 (422134)
09-16-2007 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
09-12-2007 10:50 PM


Re: SICKO - as you say
How is this different if your god created the same conditions for such life?

Death is a consequence of action not a mechanism to bring forth creatures as you would like to think. Before the original sin, there was no death.

If death and suffering are part and parcel of one they are part and parcel of the other.

There was no death before sin. The possibility existed but it was not created, rather sin was not an original consequence but more a opposing consciousness.

And of course, we can look to the bible for a source of much death and suffering ...

Which is a historically accurate work detailing how sin has effected us and how God judges sin. Thanks for bringing that up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 10:50 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 09-16-2007 3:18 AM Ihategod has responded
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 9:12 AM Ihategod has responded
 Message 37 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 10:31 AM Ihategod has responded
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 3:06 AM Ihategod has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 58 (422146)
09-16-2007 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 2:02 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
Before the original sin, there was no death.

What, for all of the ten minutes or so between the Creation of Adam and Eve and the Eating of the Fruit?

The Bible doesn't say that there was no such thing as death. Either way, how would anyone have known? I mean, there wasn't enough time for anything at all to have the chance to die before the bit with the apple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 2:02 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 3:31 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 35 of 58 (422149)
09-16-2007 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
09-16-2007 3:18 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
What, for all of the ten minutes or so between the Creation of Adam and Eve and the Eating of the Fruit?

It could have been 100 years before Eve ate of the tree of good and evil. The Bible says God saw his creation and it was good. Satan couldn't have rebelled before the creation of our world. There is a gap between when Adam was conceived and when Eve was created. Also, there was a gap of over 100 something years between when Adam and Eve had any kids.

The Bible doesn't say that there was no such thing as death. Either way, how would anyone have known? I mean, there wasn't enough time for anything at all to have the chance to die before the bit with the apple.

Sure it does. Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 09-16-2007 3:18 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19878
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 36 of 58 (422168)
09-16-2007 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 2:02 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
You haven't answered the question.

Death is a consequence of action not a mechanism to bring forth creatures as you would like to think. Before the original sin, there was no death.

There was no death before sin. The possibility existed but it was not created, rather sin was not an original consequence but more a opposing consciousness.

Which is a historically accurate work detailing how sin has effected us and how God judges sin. Thanks for bringing that up.

These are still effects of actions your god has imposed on life. Think it through. Life is. Either by (a) or by (b), we have the same end result: god made death and suffering as a mechanism to control life.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : end


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 2:02 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:35 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 37 of 58 (422181)
09-16-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 2:02 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
Death is a consequence of action not a mechanism to bring forth creatures as you would like to think. Before the original sin, there was no death.

You have presented no evidence for that and from a theological construct, if true, then god is an idiot.

There was no death before sin. The possibility existed but it was not created, rather sin was not an original consequence but more a opposing consciousness.

Again, if that is true then god is an idiot.

Which is a historically accurate work detailing how sin has effected us and how God judges sin. Thanks for bringing that up.

Again, the facts are that the Bible is NOT a very accurate historical document.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 2:02 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:39 PM jar has responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 38 of 58 (422348)
09-16-2007 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
09-16-2007 9:12 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
These are still effects of actions your god has imposed on life. Think it through. Life is. Either by (a) or by (b), we have the same end result: god made death and suffering as a mechanism to control life.

No, you are so autonomous with your replies I think you need a refresher (like a walk). My God didn't impose anything. Man imposed his will on creation and it was found wanting. This is the reality. Your (a) or (b) is of a simple mind. It is much more complex in its simplicity than you give credit. God didn't make death. Man chose death. And death is only a mechanism in your stupid theory of evolution. You should be ashamed of yourself, claiming that you are a deist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 9:12 AM RAZD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 09-17-2007 10:09 PM Ihategod has responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 39 of 58 (422350)
09-16-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
09-16-2007 10:31 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
Death is a consequence of action not a mechanism to bring forth creatures as you would like to think. Before the original sin, there was no death.

You have presented no evidence for that and from a theological construct, if true, then god is an idiot.

Why don't you present evidence to the contrary? Hmmm? You also should be ashamed of yourself, calling yourself a christian. Your in the synagogue of Satan. You hate God, you hate on me, you are a hater. The only idiot is the one who thinks he knows God and the mystery of God. You are seriously deluded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 10:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 9:49 PM Ihategod has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 40 of 58 (422353)
09-16-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 9:39 PM


on the origin of death
Based on the tales found in Genesis, God created death at the very beginning, long before Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The evidence for this is that according to the story, God also created a Tree of Life. If Death did not exist, then creating the Tree of Life was pointless and the actions of an idiot. In addition, if Death did not already exist, God's supposed exhortation that if you eat from the Tree of Knowledge you will surely die was meaningless. Further, if God had not already created Death there would be no need for God to fear that Adam and Eve might eat from the Tree of Life and thus live forever.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:39 PM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:57 PM jar has responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 41 of 58 (422357)
09-16-2007 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
09-16-2007 9:49 PM


Re: on the origin of death
Sin and death is the opposite nature of God. God must have understood the implications of sin, however to claim he created it would be ridiculous. Man chose the opposition of God, this was a knowledge that wasn't previously known or understood. Also, the tree of life could have been created after the initial creation. Nowhere does it say that God must have stopped creating. How long does God need to rest?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 9:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 10:01 PM Ihategod has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 42 of 58 (422360)
09-16-2007 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 9:57 PM


Re: on the origin of death
Also, the tree of life could have been created after the initial creation.

It is irrelevant when it was created other than the fact that it was created before Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore God had created Death even earlier otherwise as I pointed out in Message 40:

If Death did not exist, then creating the Tree of Life was pointless and the actions of an idiot. In addition, if Death did not already exist, God's supposed exhortation that if you eat from the Tree of Knowledge you will surely die was meaningless. Further, if God had not already created Death there would be no need for God to fear that Adam and Eve might eat from the Tree of Life and thus live forever.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:57 PM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Ihategod, posted 09-17-2007 7:55 PM jar has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 43 of 58 (422429)
09-17-2007 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 2:02 AM


Re: SICKO - as you say
Death is a consequence of action not a mechanism to bring forth creatures as you would like to think.

So, let's see if I've got this straight --- it's not "sick and perverted" for God to permit death and suffering --- so long as nothing evolves as a result?

If I am mischaracterising your position, I would ask you to take another run at it yourself.

Which is a historically accurate work ...

... about talking animals and magic fruit!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 2:02 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Ihategod, posted 09-17-2007 8:01 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4200 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 44 of 58 (422583)
09-17-2007 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
09-16-2007 10:01 PM


Re: on the origin of death
It is irrelevant when it was created other than the fact that it was created before Adam or Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore God had created Death even earlier otherwise as I pointed out in on the origin of death (Message 40):

What? Read my previous post here Message 41


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 10:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 09-17-2007 8:00 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 45 of 58 (422584)
09-17-2007 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Ihategod
09-17-2007 7:55 PM


Re: on the origin of death
I did. I even replied to it. Your Message 41 is not only irrelevant, it is false and I explained exactly why in Message 42 and even earlier in Message 40.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Ihategod, posted 09-17-2007 7:55 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Prev12
3
4Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019