Background info

Hi!
I have been taking a look at the forums for a while now and just decided to register. The debate is really interesting and there are some great arguments from both sides.
I am curious though, have many people converted from one belief to the other? It seems that I have found a few that have changed their stance from evolutionism to creationism (or somewhere in between). Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.
This may not be of great significance to the general debate, but I find it very interesting and helpful to get some background info and where people are coming from.
If you are a convert, feel free to e-mail me at renee@uwm.edu. I would love to hear why you made the decision that you did.
Thanks! Can't wait to join in the forums!

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Originally posted by Renee:
Hi!
I have been taking a look at the forums for a while now and just decided to register. The debate is really interesting and there are some great arguments from both sides.
I am curious though, have many people converted from one belief to the other? It seems that I have found a few that have changed their stance from evolutionism to creationism (or somewhere in between). Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.
This may not be of great significance to the general debate, but I find it very interesting and helpful to get some background info and where people are coming from.
If you are a convert, feel free to e-mail me at renee@uwm.edu. I would love to hear why you made the decision that you did.
Thanks! Can't wait to join in the forums!

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I was raised to believe creation. The inconsistencies of the position led me to buck my upbringing.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by Renee:
Hi!
I have been taking a look at the forums for a while now and just decided to register. The debate is really interesting and there are some great arguments from both sides.
I am curious though, have many people converted from one belief to the other? It seems that I have found a few that have changed their stance from evolutionism to creationism (or somewhere in between). Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.
This may not be of great significance to the general debate, but I find it very interesting and helpful to get some background info and where people are coming from.
If you are a convert, feel free to e-mail me at renee@uwm.edu. I would love to hear why you made the decision that you did.
Thanks! Can't wait to join in the forums!

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I was raised to believe creation. The inconsistencies of the position led me to buck my upbringing.

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Ditto

John, have you heard the Provine Johnson debate on tape?I think Will tends to say this about his own "fairy tale" he heard probably as a bed side story rather than a Pray in his age and time but I would only be presuming on Provine's good health for not being able to pronouce Maxwell's FIRST name.I still have not been able to figure out what elite thing Provine gave up in disbelieving his youth. My grandfather made a similar pronoucnemtn but in his case I can see IN WRITING how this "change" was associated with his own notion of adaptation but when I returned from Africa looking at fish morphology for 4 months strait and relicating to some extend my vision of form variations around the head I had been investigation with herps his notion of what consitutes adapative vs non-adapative (much of the herp variation was considered and sometimes by Provine I guess to NOT be correclty thought of as non-adaptive;; but this could not apply double to the same distance between eyes ON A HEAD as I had now duplicated with fish)Will would refuse MY ideas on adaptation... Conclusion I Christian is not permitted to use the same reasoning as an Evolutionist. OK lets say that is a "fairy tale" to use Will's own willing.I still do not get the GRACE my best friend in High School being a Catholic TOLD me of that I had not heard of in the Protestant Chruch's.So you see even with gene frequencies ostensibly being the only view of adaptions even the best of the best is not able to make fiction, the non-fiction it is. I did not convert to Luternanism although in the same diversity this denomiation IN ADDITION to any thought by Stan or Will was and Is additionally available.But all I wanted to know was if you heard this taped debate at Stanford??

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Originally posted by Renee:
Hi!
I have been taking a look at the forums for a while now and just decided to register. The debate is really interesting and there are some great arguments from both sides.
I am curious though, have many people converted from one belief to the other? It seems that I have found a few that have changed their stance from evolutionism to creationism (or somewhere in between). Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.
This may not be of great significance to the general debate, but I find it very interesting and helpful to get some background info and where people are coming from.
If you are a convert, feel free to e-mail me at renee@uwm.edu. I would love to hear why you made the decision that you did.
Thanks! Can't wait to join in the forums!

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********************************************+Could you actually list anyone who has gone from supporting evolution to believing in creationism on this forum?

Mam gland; can you be kind enough to provide here a sentence or two on what YOU consider "evolution" to be? Would Provine's %belief% in "neutral evolution" make the dome for you?? It is hard to ad to you rap line if you are not going to be positive. Give us a hand, please and lift the weight.

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Originally posted by Brad McFall:
Mam gland; can you be kind enough to provide here a sentence or two on what YOU consider "evolution" to be? Would Provine's %belief% in "neutral evolution" make the dome for you?? It is hard to ad to you rap line if you are not going to be positive. Give us a hand, please and lift the weight.

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*********************************Whoa Brad...unbunch your pants and calm down dude. I asked a valid question of Renee. She stated that she had seen examples of people in this forum drifting into the creationist camp and I asked for a list so that I don't have to read every single post ever made in the forum to figure out what she is talking about.

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She stated that she had seen examples of people in this forum drifting into the creationist camp...

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I suspect that she is noticing comments from the evolution side, that many accept a compatibility of evolution and creation. I don't know if anyone has gone from "atheistic evolutionist" to "theistic evolutionist".My impression of the moment, is that TC has "evolved" from a "hard core YEC scientific ignoramus", into a "hard core YEC scientific much-less-ignoramus lawyer". Kind of like the "What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer? - An offer you can't understand."Mooseps: I'm finally being able to remember how to spell "theistic"!!! (I did get it right, didn't I?)------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 10-01-2002]

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Originally posted by minnemooseus:

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She stated that she had seen examples of people in this forum drifting into the creationist camp...

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I suspect that she is noticing comments from the evolution side, that many accept a compatibility of evolution and creation. I don't know if anyone has gone from "atheistic evolutionist" to "theistic evolutionist".

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My impression of the moment, is that TC has "evolved" from a "hard core YEC scientific ignoramus", into a "hard core YEC scientific much-less-ignoramus lawyer". Kind of like the "What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer? - An offer you can't understand."

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Moose

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ps: I'm finally being able to remember how to spell "theistic"!!! (I did get it right, didn't I?)

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I never bother to check my spelling which is pretty obvious Though I like it when I am compared to satan or whatever...I guess satan is easier to spell I was hoping Renee would respond but you are probably right in your analysis of what she is suggesting. I would have argued it goes the other way in that people like True Creation cling to their beliefs but they start to at least see somehow that science and scientific discourse are different from a belief system.Ironically, I think when Brad gets angry he is much easier to understand though I am not completely sure why my question ticked him off so much. Na ja...how to win friends and influence people, the new best seller by Mammuthus

Thanks, Min; I think you got my "drift".

Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.
This may not be of great significance to the general debate, but I find it very interesting and helpful to get some background info and where people are coming from. I grew up in a Christian school and had serious doubts about whether evolution was true or not considering every major university taught it as fact and what I thought every intelligent scientist believed it as a fact. If so many people thought it was a fact how could all of these people be wrong? In my heart I could see the clear evidence for design in the world as so overpowering yet I thought no respectable scientist beleived in creation and it troubled me. I then decided to research this my self and really see how strong the evidence for evolution is. I read the books Darwin on Trial and Evolution a Theory in Crisis and these books were a wake up call to me on how the public is being sold pseudoscience as scientific fact just as I suspected and bigotry and censorship are the reasons why opposing viewpoints are never discussed in schools. I also realized there were thousands of highly qualified scientists who had serious doubts about evolution and many believed the scientific evidence more strongly supported biblical creation. The effect this had on me and my faith in God was monumental. Since then I inhale books on the issue of creation and evolution and even strongly considered changing my profession and get an advanced degree in biology to help the creationist cause more effectively. Its a shame kids can't hear both sides of the issue in public schools today as it would have profound effects that people don't realize and I'm sure thats what humanists fear the most.[This message has been edited by jhappel, 10-14-2002][This message has been edited by jhappel, 10-15-2002]

jhappel writes: I read the books Darwin on Trial and Evolution a Theory in Crisis and these books were a wake up call to me on how the public is being sold pseudoscience as scientific fact just as I suspected and biogtry and censorship are the reasons why opposing viewpoints are never discussed in schools.

Pseudoscience has no evidence and its theories vary with who's presenting them. The main body of evolutionary evidence is strong and broad, producing a very broad consensus of scientific opinion.True pseudoscience changes with the wind. Don't like a particular view on ESP? Don't worry, there will always be another. That evolution is true science is apparent in the way the theory only changes in response to evidence or improved understanding.Most scientists believe in God and accept evolution because of the evidence. They have no reason, and since they are just ordinary people like you and me probably no stomach or tolerance, for conspiracies of bigotry and censorship.

I also realized there were thousands of highly qualified scientists who had serious doubts about evolution and many believed the scientific evidence more strongly supported biblical creation.

Creationists have been claiming for decades and decades that more and more scientists are coming to realize that evolution is a fraud and that Creationism is the better model, but the reality is that qualified scientists who accept Creationism remain a tiny, tiny minority within science. Think about it. This claim was made in the 50s, and it was made in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90's. Now it's being made in the new millenium. And how many more scientists today accept Creationism than back in the 50s? I don't have any hard numbers, of course, but despite 50 years of more of more scientists abandoning evolution, it remains more strongly than ever the prevailing view within science. Somebody's lying to you, and it ain't me!The books you've read have told you a story not supported by the facts. If thousands of scientists were really questioning evolution then alternatives, perhaps Creationism, would already be taught in schools and universities.Why don't you raise some of the issues that seemed significant to you in Johnson's and Denton's books in threads here? I think you'll find the facts have been misrepresented.--Percy

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It seems that I have found a few that have changed their stance from evolutionism to creationism (or somewhere in between). Has anyone decided to go with the evolutists debate after originally proclaiming their belief in creationism.

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I am a taxonomist, interested in observing changes and variation in the wild. Recently two former creationists change sides: Delshad from creationist to theistic evolutionist, and Hanno from creationist to neutral. Changes do happen if you look around.

jhappel: If you're basing your opposition on books like "Darwin on Trial" (written by a lawyer and containing a great deal of factual error), or "Theory in Crisis" (written by a biologist whose more recent book, written ten years later, "Nature's Destiny", thoroughly and utterly refutes all but a single chapter in the first work), then you may not be basing your decision on fact.You are free, of course, to believe anything you want.

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
jhappel: If you're basing your opposition on books like "Darwin on Trial" (written by a lawyer and containing a great deal of factual error), or "Theory in Crisis" (written by a biologist whose more recent book, written ten years later, "Nature's Destiny", thoroughly and utterly refutes all but a single chapter in the first work), then you may not be basing your decision on fact.

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You are free, of course, to believe anything you want.

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Interesting you would say that. I have read Nature's Destiny and I don't see where it refutes a single chapter in A Theory in Crisis. Can you be specific?