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Author Topic:   Language and the Tower of Babel
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 28 of 95 (427343)
10-11-2007 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
10-10-2007 6:25 PM


Re: My 'theory'...
There is no means to think without language.
There is no means to think with language. Language has no problem solving capability. (Assuming you mean language as in natural language; if you're broadening the term to include all forms of symbolic representation, then it's a different matter).
What's more there is no evidence that language shapes thought (with one exception, knowing a specific word for a colour does produce a measurable effect in the ability to remember that colour) and many simple demonstration that we don't think in language: ever not had the word to express what you're thinking? Ever come across a new word and realised it describes exactly what you wanted to say? How about animals? We know many animals that can't speak, or understand language, yet they are capable of quite impressive intellectual feats.
Otherwise, you have a mostly non-functioning organ that just keeps increasing for no reason until one day: BAM, language... seems silly. Now, at what point the 'internal' language actually became externally used for communication, I haven't a clue.
Imagine this instead: language evolved from simpler forms of communication. We know simpler forms of communication exist because they're used throughout all forms of life on earth, from bacteria to dolphins. Some are auditory, some are visual, some are olfactory. Among our nearer relatives the monkeys and the great apes there are even some with basic pseudo-grammars. The advantage to greater levels of communication are fairly obvious and pretty linear. Try this simple experiment: go to France (assuming you don't speak French) and try to get around. To begin with you'll only know a few words and have to point and gesture and be unable to get your point across in many cases. Learn a few more and things become easier. A few more and it gets easier still. The same principle applies with the evolution of language.

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 Message 7 by Jon, posted 10-10-2007 6:25 PM Jon has not replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 31 of 95 (427355)
10-11-2007 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by bernerbits
10-11-2007 9:19 AM


Re: My 'theory'...
Certainly. It's just very interesting to consider what environmental conditions favored something so intricate as language (let alone weird stuff like religion and music and our obsession with comfort and luxury), when "hungry, get food", "bad mushroom, no eat" and "tiger, run away" seem like they could suffice in evolutionary terms.
Society, I believe. The need to express not just plans and wants but express how others are thinking about them.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 36 of 95 (427376)
10-11-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by bernerbits
10-11-2007 9:50 AM


Re: My 'theory'...
If you're happy with wild speculation...
The base level is an immediate communication: "Eagle!"
The next level is memory communication: "Fruit this-way"
Then you have planned action: "We-go [gather] fruit this-way"
Directed action "We-go attack Bimbim"
Temporal offset "Soon we-go attack Bimbim"
Command "Soon we-go attack Bimbim; tell others"
Information "Earlier Bobo attack Bimbim"
Animals will lie to misdirect others, for example making false alarm calls to get others to drop food, and are capable of distinguishing the caller and acting differently according to who said it. If you're communicating with temporal or spatial offsets so that the validity of a statement can't be directly determined so knowing who said it can be valueable.
And you're up to "Migo say Bobo attack Bimbim earlier."
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

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