Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists

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So by the same token, do you believe in God-selection (GS) rather than secularist natural selection (NS) and God-mutation rather than secularist random mutation?

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How do you tell the difference between them?

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I suggest that you learn all you can from this place, but do try to comprehend all you can as to how wonderfully complex living things are and the extremely low the odds of it all coming about without an intelligent designer and creator to make it happen so precisely and so complete.

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What are the odds, Buz? Please show your math.What do you mean by "precisely" and "complete"?Please be specific.

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Consider also that planet earth, among all the planets in our solar system just happens to be the exact distance from the sun and moon and just happens to have all the elements and the water, etc to make it the exclusive right place for life so far as we are able to observe from earth. Could all this have come to be randomly and naturally? I don't think so.

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Why not?Please be specific.Please show your work.

Hi Buz!Even though I know that you will either1) Ignore this message completely, or2) reply but not give any specific, useful, substantive answers to my very specific questions,your poor logic needs to be addressed.

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As if any of us were there to know exactly.

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...then you must reject Genesis, too, because no one was there to know exactly.How many times do you have to have this explained to you, Buz? Why do you keep using the same refuted arguments and poor logic over and over again?

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Someone on this thread was just saying that creos think they know it all You people seem to be the ones who think thataway.

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Buzsaw, what would falsify your belief in the literal truth of the Bible?Nothing?I can list at least a dozen scenarios, if found to be true, that would falsify evolution for me.Who thinks they "know it all", the person who keeps believing no matter the evidence, or the person who will change their mind when new evidence comes in?

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...and precious little in the fossil record for verifying the billions of should be transitionals.

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1) Please describe exactly what would constitute a transitional form for you, Buz.2) Please explain why there should be billions of them, including an explanation of your understanding of how fossils form, how much of the Earth has been explored for fossils, and how rare fossilization is.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-10-2004 09:32 AM

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Jesus, the prophets and the desciples would all disagree with you, as do many scientists and other people in academia.

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But buzsaw, I thought that scientists and academics were all to be mistrusted because they were brainwashed?

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So by the same token, do you believe in God-selection (GS) rather than secularist natural selection (NS) and God-mutation rather than secularist random mutation?

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Jar, to whom I asked the question seemed to understand the difference. What's your problem? Read and think.

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Sorry, I don't understand the difference.You seem to know how to tell the differece, which is why I asked you.Why won't you tell me? I just want to learn.

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I suggest that you learn all you can from this place, but do try to comprehend all you can as to how wonderfully complex living things are and the extremely low the odds of it all coming about without an intelligent designer and creator to make it happen so precisely and so complete.

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The odds are great, imo, and I'm not doing the math.

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I'm sure they are great, buz, but I want to know just HOW great.That's why I want to see your math.C'mon, show me how you calculated the odds! I really wanna see!

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Look the words up. That's specifically what I mean.

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I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.I wanted to know how you meant those words in the context in which you used them:"...without an intelligent designer and creator to make it happen so precisely and so complete..."I already know what the dictionary definitions mean, I wasn't sure what you meant in this case, so I asked you to clarify.I'd really appreciate it.It looks like you forgot this bit, so here it is again!:

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Consider also that planet earth, among all the planets in our solar system just happens to be the exact distance from the sun and moon and just happens to have all the elements and the water, etc to make it the exclusive right place for life so far as we are able to observe from earth. Could all this have come to be randomly and naturally? I don't think so.

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Please move on. I stated an opinion and have no time nor desire to be drawn into a side trip science debate with you on every little thing I say.

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Buz, this is a public forum. I can reply to whom I wish, just as you can.I was interested in the answers you had to my questions.It is certainly on topic.I am interested to know upon what do you base your opinions?

Hi Buz!

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OK, Ms Knowitall. I won't disappoint you and make you look stupid by contradicting what you know concerning my responses. G'nite.

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Go ahead and make me look stupid, buz. It would serve me right, wouldn't it?Oh, and how can you call me a know it all when I do nothing but ask questions of you?I am a seeker of the truth, buz, and by asking you questions I hope to learn something.

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As we observe ourselves, the animals, the plants, etc that exist, we see little evidence of incomplete living things in the process of evolving

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Hmm, what do you mean by "in the process of evolving"?Do you mean "changing"?

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nor the need for what we are observing to become more complete.

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I am sorry, but I am still unclear on what you mean when you use the word "complete" in this context, so I also don't understand what "more complete" means either.Do you mean that every organism on the planet is perfect and unchanging? That we have never seen new species?

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Nor do we observe anything that doesn't appear to have been precisely designed and complex.

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Again, I am not sure what you mean.First, what definition of "complex" are you using, and also what criteria are you using to tell if something is "precisely designed".What would be an imaginary example of something that isn't "precisely designed"?I am thinking, maybe, the blind spot in the human retina? Or maybe the crossover food and air pipes?

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Most of what we observe is just as complete and precisely complex as the fossil record shows them to have been for a very long time.

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I am still confused, sorry.Let me ask you this, though.What are vestigial structures?

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Schraf, would you please stop asking questions and address the specifics of the answers I've given to your questions already asked.

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I'm terribly sorry, buz, but I am afraid that I just don't understand your answers enough to make any kind of real, substantive response.You gave a couple of vague responses, to which I replied with more requests for details, and also several suggestions of what I thought you might be talking about.Why didn't you respond to those requests for more detailed answers, and why didn't you discuss my suggestions of what the implications of your position were?What's wrong with me doing that? Isn't that what someone who isn't sure about anothers' point does?

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What I have answered is my answer. Period. Now, please either refute them as stated or move on to another thought. This's the kind of stuff that bogs me down in these threads with time consuming periferals and off topic side trips.

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What you call "time consuming peripherals", I call "examining the logical implications of an argument", and "checking an opinion against the facts".Yes, buz, I understand fully that you do consider the detailed examination of the logical implications and factual basis of your "opinions" to be an activity that "bogs you down".I agree that you consider said examinations to be "peripheral" and "off topic side trips".The thing is, though, that unless you are willing to explore the logical implications and factual basis of your opinions, you are going to continue to make the same logical and factual errors over and over again.Again, let me ask you what is wrong with me asking you to flesh out the details of what you are claiming?If you don't have any more details, cannot answer any of my questions of clarification, or don't have anything at all further to say, then is the problem that I am asking the questions or is the problem that you don't have any answers to them?

OK, we can start with these two terms which you used in the following sentence regarding what you seem to consider evidence of supernatural intervention or design in the universe

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Nor do we observe anything that doesn't appear to have been precisely designed and complex.

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"Precisely designed", and "Complex".Maybe you can provide a couple of examples of each?As I already asked, what criterion are you using to tell if some organism has been designed in a "precise" way, rather than in a non-guided, natural way?Also, what do you mean by "complex" as it refers to organisms? Do you mean DNA, number of genes, cell structure, the nervous system, reproduction, the Krebs cycle, etc?Do you mean to say that complexity can only come about with God's intervention?

[quote]1. What we observe in our daily lives is that complex things like computers, televisions, airplanes, etc is that in order to become complex to do what we want them to do, masterfully precisioned and designed by thousands of individuals go into making them the complex machines which function to serve us as they do.[quote] Hmm, I am puzzled by your use of the phrase "to become complex" in regards to machines designed by humans.There machines are designed to be complex from the get go, so they don't "become" complex at all.

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2. By the same token, scientists observe the brain, it is discovered that some 100 billion neurons, served by around a trillion service agents function with great precision to operate the nervous systems of each of billions of people. Each neuron interacts with at least 10 other neurons in the process. I believe the human mind is far more complex than anything man-made. No amount of co-operative human intelligence can make one from scratch.

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3. The thread title is "Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists. It is the notion of some of us more ignorant Biblical fundamental creationists that no amount of time nor natural selection nor random mutation with out a smidget of intelligence would be able to produce such a precisely designed and super-highly complex wonder as the human brain, no matter how you cook up your math and rig up your theories

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Each human brain originates from a single egg and a single sperm.We know from developmental Biology that each thing that happens in the growth and development of a human brain is not completely controlled by the person's DNA. In fact, there is nowhere near enough DNA and genes to regulate each and every connection in the human brain.The human brain starts off with vastly more connections than it needs, and maost of these connections die off during the process of development in a process that is curiously analogous to natural selection.Environmental influence strongly determines the vast majority of which kinds and how many brain connections remain.The point is, human brain development is a concrete example of complexity arising without ANY supernatural intervention.Are you saying that God is individually "wiring" each and every brain?

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And don't forget also that the kings wise men have models to observe and work from/copy, where NS and RM, had nothing atol to begin to put it all together, not even anything whatsoever to motivate them to do it.

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But Buz, people have used the principles of Natural Selection to solve engineering problems that human engineers could not figure out.They use genetic algorhithms.Nature, as in Natural Selection, is smarter than people.

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I think she actually gets some kind of a kick outa agravating me. She reminds me of an unruly kid who incessantly asks an adult questions for the purpose of annoyance.

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Buz, you remind me of a uneducated parent who makes up answers to questions they have no intention of thinking about or accurately answering for the purpose of shutting up their curious kid.

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Uneducated is one word for ignorant. I guess this just is another example. Both of ignorance and Buz ducking yet again.

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Hey, I was the good cop this time and you got to be the bad cop!

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SHUT TUP, BRAT!

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Rot in a nursing home, jerk!