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Author Topic:   Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists
kc8rdb
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 196 (155857)
11-04-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
11-03-2004 6:58 PM


Re: Shoes on different feet.
That is sooo true. Studying science during gradeschool and even high school was a breeze (my school believes that the only "science" is Creationism). Studying evolution now is a challenge, not only because of the way I was taught science, but it also challenges my belief system as a Creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NosyNed, posted 11-03-2004 6:58 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 11-04-2004 1:06 PM kc8rdb has not replied
 Message 19 by Gary, posted 11-07-2004 2:03 PM kc8rdb has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 17 of 196 (155863)
11-04-2004 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GoodIntentions
11-03-2004 8:10 PM


Re: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists
I am interested in creationist biology because there was not any place for me to become a herpetologist and insofar as this WAS DUE to evolutionist suppresion of Aggaizz's over a hundred year old prescription on "darwinist" inference, I am an creationist strictly but I would like to see the only herpeteological aspect of Lamarkism better explained in the literature without reference to "politics". If I had gone to SUNYBighamton instead of Cornell I would likely be a specialist in salamander speciation rather than showing up the old motto of CU. I am an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church. I also think the Russian Georgi Gladyshev is dead on-no matter how, one takes Pasteur's grand asymmetry as to D and L amino acids. We all come with "bagAge" hopefully this is only luggage.

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 196 (155868)
11-04-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by kc8rdb
11-04-2004 12:13 PM


The theological challenge
...but it also challenges my belief system as a Creationist.
And that is why a large number of believers are against creationism. When people are taught ignorance and have it inclucated into them that if the science stuff is true then God doesn't exist their faith can be shattered by the truth.
There is no reason why you can't maintain a belief in God and Christ as evidenced by many believers here who do while still understanding what we have learned through science.
The majority of believers have maintained their faith while still understanding and accepting scientific results. Good luck.
( a small note: creationist can be term meaning God created everything . That rather open meaning isn't useful in the context of the discussions here. The more restricted meaning is usually the one used -- a person who believes in a 6 day creation, young earth etc.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by kc8rdb, posted 11-04-2004 12:13 PM kc8rdb has not replied

  
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 196 (156968)
11-07-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by kc8rdb
11-04-2004 12:13 PM


Re: Shoes on different feet.
Just out of curiosity, where did you go to high school? I went to high school in Florida, and the teacher only briefly mentioned Creationism, but when I took an introductory biology course at UF, we spent much more time discussing the problems with Creationism and evidence supporting evolution. I thought that it was illegal to teach Creationism in most places, at most, they have an "equal time" type of thing where teachers must give the same amount of class time to evolution as they do to Creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by kc8rdb, posted 11-04-2004 12:13 PM kc8rdb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:06 AM Gary has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 196 (156975)
11-07-2004 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by kc8rdb
11-04-2004 12:06 PM


Where is the conflict?
IMHO the issue is not really Creation vs Evolution, GOD vs Science. Instead it is between reliance on theories developed thousands of years ago or more recent theories, between theories based on evidence that was available thousands of years ago and those that consider what we have learned since then.
The Classic Creationist wants to take the tales in Genesis literally. We can see this in other threads where they vigorously declare that there are no differences between the accounts in Genesis 1 & 2, even when anyone who reads those chapters can see the differences themselves.
The difference, IMHO, is that those who wish to take the Genesis Creation story literally start with a belief that it is true, and so any problems seen are simply our own misunderstanding. They go through amazing mental gymnastics to show those mutually exclusive statements simply are not mutually exclusive.
It is a willing suspension of belief.
I would describe myself as a Creationist. I believe that GOD created the Universe and all that we can experience. I believe that the thing that changed the state of the primordial egg was GOD, that GOD was what lead to the Big Bang.
If one day we should discover that Brane Theories are correct and that is what lead to the Big Bang, my reaction would be, "Oh, that's how GOD did it!"
For me, there is no real conflict between the Bible and Evolution, between the Bible and Science. The purpose of the Bible is to provide guidelines for living a moral life. The two are mutually supportive and not exclusionary.
Classic Creationists have a problem. Their faith, which is very important to them, is tied up and based on a thing, a work, an anthology. The threat from the Theory of Evolution is percieved. It is internal to their theology.
Their theology is not based on the moral message from the Bible but rather the text itself. As I have said before, it is founded on the reality of the Map and not on the actual Territory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by kc8rdb, posted 11-04-2004 12:06 PM kc8rdb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:13 AM jar has replied
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 7:30 PM jar has replied

  
kc8rdb
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 196 (157608)
11-09-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Gary
11-07-2004 2:03 PM


Re: Shoes on different feet.
I went to a private school in Michigan where it is legal for them to teach Creation as science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Gary, posted 11-07-2004 2:03 PM Gary has not replied

  
kc8rdb
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 196 (157610)
11-09-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
11-07-2004 2:32 PM


Re: Where is the conflict?
I agree with you here. I was raised in the "classic Creationist" tradition, and taught the arguments for Creation to the exclusivity of evolution. However, as I study more and more, I am finding out that this may not be the right approach. See why I am so confused? Most of what I have been taught about the origin of the earth is not what I am learning now. Make sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2004 2:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NosyNed, posted 11-09-2004 11:51 AM kc8rdb has replied
 Message 24 by Loudmouth, posted 11-09-2004 11:54 AM kc8rdb has replied
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-09-2004 3:53 PM kc8rdb has not replied
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2004 7:47 PM kc8rdb has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 23 of 196 (157616)
11-09-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 11:13 AM


Making sense of it all.
See why I am so confused? Most of what I have been taught about the origin of the earth is not what I am learning now. Make sense?
Of course it makes sense that there is confusion. From my point of view that is something that the literalists are doing deliberately.
However, how to you, personally, decide what is correct?
There is an immense store of information spanning several sciences. Some of it is simple enough, but much of it is complex and requires a lot of background. If you care enough to want to know what is more likely to be correct how do you manage that? What do you learn about, from whom? How do you take that knowledge and apply it to coming to your own conclusions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:13 AM kc8rdb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 12:00 PM NosyNed has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 196 (157617)
11-09-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 11:13 AM


Re: Where is the conflict?
quote:
I agree with you here. I was raised in the "classic Creationist" tradition, and taught the arguments for Creation to the exclusivity of evolution. However, as I study more and more, I am finding out that this may not be the right approach. See why I am so confused? Most of what I have been taught about the origin of the earth is not what I am learning now. Make sense?
Who do you trust more on the subject of science, the creationist teachers or your current teachers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:13 AM kc8rdb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 12:11 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
kc8rdb
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 196 (157620)
11-09-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NosyNed
11-09-2004 11:51 AM


Re: Making sense of it all.
That is what I am currently trying to work out. For several weeks now I have been trying to systematically study into the theories of evolution, as well as the evidences thereof. I know that there is a wealth of information out there, so therefore a biology teacher out in Mississippi has been helping to guide my studies in this respect. He has recommended some biology textbooks, which I study when I can, and he is always there if I have any questions about anything. Also, there are several others that I talk to who are ready and willing to answer questions. From what I learn in this manner, I am able to draw my own conclusions that are based on logic and evidence. At this point in time, my search is far from over, but eventually I will arrive at a final conclusion. When that will be, I do not know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NosyNed, posted 11-09-2004 11:51 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by NosyNed, posted 11-09-2004 12:12 PM kc8rdb has replied

  
kc8rdb
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 196 (157625)
11-09-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Loudmouth
11-09-2004 11:54 AM


Re: Where is the conflict?
Who is to say which is really right??? Sometimes when I am studying I begin to wonder which way is up, if you know what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Loudmouth, posted 11-09-2004 11:54 AM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Loudmouth, posted 11-09-2004 5:09 PM kc8rdb has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 27 of 196 (157626)
11-09-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 12:00 PM


Re: Making sense of it all.
I think there are resources here that you can use too. Some of the people here actually know stuff (unlike yours truely). We have "resident" biologists, geneticists and geologists.
Many of them are generous with their time in trying to help. You might want to make use of that.
Are you attempting to organize how you approch it? That is, are there specific questions that you think are core?
One example that I would use is the age of the earth thing. I have stated before that I'd have a tough time accepting evolutionary theory if the earth were only 6,000 years old. Therefore I would put that one high on my list of things to sort out. The side effect is that some of the demonstrations of the reasonableness of evolutionary theory is the correlation between the dates of fossils and the relationship of genetic differences. If the fossil dating isn't acceptable to someone then they can't make sense out of the correlation can they?
After that, the question that might be asked is: what is the real nature of the fossil evidence? Are there "transitionals"? What the heck do I, as in me the individual, think one would look like? Why do I think that?
What do you think of that?
(added by edit)
Above I'm not talking about the theory of evolution by the way. After you think you have enough information to accept that the evolution of life on earth probably happened then you may consider explanations of how it happened. That is tougher actually. I think it requires a lot more work to understand what it is saying and decide if it is plausible.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-09-2004 05:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 12:00 PM kc8rdb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by kc8rdb, posted 11-10-2004 9:54 AM NosyNed has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 196 (157709)
11-09-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 11:13 AM


Re: Where is the conflict?
Well hang in there. Go where the evidence leads you and you'll find the journey exciting and most enjoyable.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 11:13 AM kc8rdb has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 196 (157728)
11-09-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by kc8rdb
11-09-2004 12:11 PM


Re: Where is the conflict?
quote:
Who is to say which is really right??? Sometimes when I am studying I begin to wonder which way is up, if you know what I mean.
I am speaking from my experiences with creationists, so this may not apply to your situation. In debate boards and personal conversations the thing that always stuns me is the scientific falsehoods that are spread by creationists. For instance, many creationists claim that helium does not escape the atmosphere in an attempt to show that the earth is young (if you want the full argument I can explain it in another post). However, it has been known for over 20 years that helium can and does escape the atmosphere at a rate that ensures a balance between production and atmospheric buildup. This, along with other notions that have beens shown to be wrong, make me distrust creationists. Of course, evolution has had it's knocks along the way. However, the falsehoods in evolution have been refuted BY EVOLUTIONISTS, not creationists.
Again, in my experience, creationists teach falsehoods on a regular basis. For most of the scientifically uneducated creationists it isn't really telling a lie, it is unknowingly relaying false information. I am a scientist, and this type of behavior is NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, condoned nor allowed in the sciences. When false information is uncovered in the biological sciences the perpetrator is often stripped of all their research money and sent packing. In the creationist world, the perpetrator is often praised for being falsely persecuted.
This type of activity on the part of creationists that I have read and interacted with leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. At this point in your life these people may be authority figures in your life, and outside of scientific discussions they may be very knowledgable and wise people. My only suggestion is to do exactly what you are doing now, take all the evidence at face value and judge it on logic and rational. In addition to this, I would also suggest that you understand the philosophy behind the the scientific method. This is the foundation for all of the sciences, and the better you understand the basis, the scientific method, the better you will comprehend all the theories in the sciences. Good luck, have a wonderful journey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kc8rdb, posted 11-09-2004 12:11 PM kc8rdb has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 196 (157753)
11-09-2004 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
11-07-2004 2:32 PM


Re: Where is the conflict?
I would describe myself as a Creationist. I believe that GOD created the Universe and all that we can experience. I believe that the thing that changed the state of the primordial egg was GOD, that GOD was what lead to the Big Bang.
So by the same token, do you believe in God-selection (GS) rather than secularist natural selection (NS) and God-mutation rather than secularist random mutation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2004 2:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-09-2004 7:47 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 55 by nator, posted 11-10-2004 9:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
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