No need for grunt work? *Societal Roles*

Technological advances since the industrial revolution have provided mankind less need for hard work, heavy lifting, and work that mainly males would do during this time. "Grunt work" has been disappearing, as humans rely on machines and other tools to take away this sort of labor.My biology teacher talked about human genetics and sort of deliberately went on a tangent to make points about humanity. He started by telling the class about cows, and how scientists actually figured out how to make hermaphrodite cows.. negating a need for the "bull" on the farm!My teacher than crudely compared human males to the bulls. He told us that if we knew any farmers, they would probably tell us that they would rather have female cows used for producing milk. They are more efficient producers. He said that the hermaphrodites would drive out the bulls and that production on dairy farms would skyrocket.He tied this to humans. He jokingly said that when women realize this, they would take over the world in revenge, and that he was making data in support of women when this day would happen to secure his safety! Ending the physical gap between men and women would make men and women more equal than ever before. Aside from the jokes, this is a really important point that he made, really condemning the oppression that men have put on women for so long, maybe stemming from this difference in physical ability.I was wondering if anyone could comment on the thoughts above, maybe shed some light on this gloomy reality.http://home.att.net/~Raidcon/galactus.jpgThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-24-2005 03:06 AM

If you saw some of the women at the Health club that I attend, you would be convinced that the physical gap is over!I edited your topic starter. Where do you wanna go? Which forum?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-24-2005 03:07 AM

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Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution
Can't decide what forum your topic belongs in? Perhaps it belongs here!

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Maybe?

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porteus@gmail.com

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Although I agree that gap of gender roles have certainly narrowed quite a bit in the last half of the century (I'm stuck in a time warp, I still think in terms of 20th century), I don't agree that the physical gap could ever end. There are biological traits in either sex that the other one doesn't have. For example, we know for a fact that men could never carry a fetus inside his... thing. The only way to really end the physical gap is to do what the Asgard did.

good job lam, two threads closed and the demon thread was good :/

You know, I don't think that the issue is to turn us ALL into hermaphrodites! Some of us gotta be bulls. (Surely we generate enough B.S. ! ) Societal roles are getting to be pretty interchangable, however. Many critics of the Bible and the creationist view maintain that the ancient writers were quite biased. While I would agree, I do not think that societal/sociological gender equality should ever be a goal. Men are from Mars, Woman from Venus. I work with kids that show many signs of disfunction based, by and large, on their lack of a good positive male image in their lives.Some of them have some strong Mamas as well, though...so I won't generalize at this point. Who were your mentors and role models growing up, Troy?

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I do not think that societal/sociological gender equality should ever be a goal.

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If you mean that you do not think that we should have the goal of women and men becoming the same, I agree.If you mean that you do not think that we should have the goal of women and men being treated equally in society as human beings, then I very much disagree.

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Men are from Mars, Woman from Venus.

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No, not really.Much of our gender role behavior is dictated by our culture.

Although my personal gut instinct agrees with you completely, my objective side tells me that we should also present the opportunity for those that want to be completely equal.Take the military, for example. Currently, there are branches in the military that are closed to female candidates. Although I agree with the military when they say that the physical limits of males are greater than females generally, I do not agree with them having a blanket rule that precludes all females. Why not set a solid line for the standards and let anyone/everyone through IFF he/she is able to meet those standards? Unfortunately, my father was my mentor and role model when I was growing up. It took me years to un-doctrinize myself.My father is a strong proponent of the Vietnamese tradition regarding gender roles. Extreme physical discipline was not beyond the limit. He also believes that women are nothing (his views of women are very close to that of Islamic fundamentalist view).I grew up thinking that because I was my father's son I knew everything there is to know. Why listen to my teachers if I knew more than them? Everyone who was not a Vietnamese man is considered inferior to me. Imagine going to school and looking down on everyone that was there because you were better than all of them.Anyway, only after I was only way to being fluent in English that I started questioning some of these beliefs.I must admit that I do have an anger management problem that I inherited from my father. Vietnamese men are not suppose to control their anger. Just shout out when you feel like it. It is something that has taken me years to bring under control.

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Although I agree that gap of gender roles have certainly narrowed quite a bit in the last half of the century (I'm stuck in a time warp, I still think in terms of 20th century), I don't agree that the physical gap could ever end. There are biological traits in either sex that the other one doesn't have. For example, we know for a fact that men could never carry a fetus inside his... thing. The only way to really end the physical gap is to do what the Asgard did.

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Asgard?My bio teacher talked about lung capacity, difference in height in men and women. He mentioned that production of testosterone "helps" men do things. Do you know what is meant by that?There seems to be a need for the roles that culture has dictated, (as schraf said) but how far can we go until we realize that they mean nothing? And when can mankind finally put to rest the inequalities between man and woman. I am wondering really, about some of the differences in men and women, if they are significant.My prediction is that they are not truly significant, but are there to establish guidelines in survival, or guidelines in life.This topic was kind of sparked through a conversation that I had at a track invitational with the female bus driver. It was a great conversation, she seemingly is a republican, that is for human rights. She said some things that made me think and I would like to hear from some of you. Also, on a side note, she didn't like the new pope because he was too "straight edge", (she was probably catholic) but she voted for prez bush.I talked to her about the sexist greek philosophers, by today's standards. And how they could not realize that women weren't educated like men, making them difficult to hold conversations with. But it started when I asked what she did for a living, she said before she divorced her husband, she was a housewife, and raised children. I then said, the gender roles (or societal roles w/e) are changing, and she said yes, I know. Now men and women have to work... Just to support the family's demands. She really amazed me, she lived through a time of oppression, even in today's socities my global teacher talks about "glass cielings".Women have survived a lot because of power hungry men, and I agree with my bio teacher, they have the right to take over the world.Before the last couple of weeks, I was paranoid about commercials with a fat white husband and a beautiful wife, I would hate to see commercials with blatantly dumb men, and smart women. Many sitcoms like this. But whatever, it doesn't matter, and it doesn't help me whatsoever to spend the time to think about these trivial ideas, and society's ever changing expectation. Society became the world.This message has been edited by prophex, 04-24-2005 06:13 PM

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porteus@gmail.com

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If you mean that you do not think that we should have the goal of women and men becoming the same, I agree.

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I'm sure that's what he meant.

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porteus@gmail.com

How? What is the relevance of height and lung capacity to gender inequality?added in edit: women in the developed world on average earn around 70% as much as men do, for doing the same work. If you believe that there is a physical reason for this disparity in earnings, for the same work, you will need to provide me with some evidence. You will need to show that short men get paid 70% of the earnings of tall men, and that men with small lungs get paid 70% of the earnings of men with large lungs, for example. If you can show this, then I will accept that differences in the physical ability of human beings result in pay differences (i.e. discrimination), otherwise I must assume that the discrimination suffered by women is not due to physical differences between women and menThis message has been edited by mick, 04-24-2005 07:25 PM

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added in edit: women in the developed world on average earn around 70% as much as men do, for doing the same work. If you believe that there is a physical reason for this disparity in earnings, for the same work, you will need to provide me with some evidence. You will need to show that short men get paid 70% of the earnings of tall men, and that men with small lungs get paid 70% of the earnings of men with large lungs, for example. If you can show this, then I will accept that differences in the physical ability of human beings result in pay differences (i.e. discrimination), otherwise I must assume that the discrimination suffered by women is not due to physical differences between women and men

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You have misconstrued my post.Over time, men have oppressed women, this may have been at first sparked due to physical differences. Simply a speculation.

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porteus@gmail.com

good, so there is no physical basis for human sex discrimination.your teacher may not have been so far off the mark in that human males may be on the way out. This has happened in other species, including (I think) a mammal (though I'll have to search this one out - I think there are "sex reversed" voles where the Y chromosome is unneccessary in producing a male phenotype).The Y chromosome is definitely shrinking and might disappear at some point. I don't know whether this would mean that there would be no males, though. Read Nature - Not Found

mispostThis message has been edited by chris simon porteus jr, 04-24-2005 08:51 PM

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listen to phil collins and nas