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Author Topic:   Recolonization Flood/Post-Flood model
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 26 (217976)
06-18-2005 11:37 PM


Motivations and evidence for the Recolonization Model
Biblical
* The early Flood day-one event is described as a Mabul (Hebrew 'Utter destruction') and is the same word as used to describe the utter destruction of Soddom and Gommorrah a few chapters later. This suggests that, irrespective of mechanisms, perhaps we don't see the fossilization of the pre-Flood terrestial world.
* Shortly after the Flood the Bible (Gen 10) comments on the naming of the patriach Peleg for 'in his days the earth was divided'. If this does describe the break-up of Pangea, the super-continent, this means the Flood had ended some time in the Paleozoic.
Scientific
In common with Ecological-zoning Models ('Standard' YEC Flood)
* The geological column, at the formation level, demonstrates much evidence of rapidity and violence in origin.
* In any one region, the geological column demonstrates surprsingly few significant breaks in layering ('unconformities').
* The fossil record is consistent with a record of primarily overlapping stasis with very few good examples of transitions.
* Helium retention results by the RATE group suggest that radio-decay was accelerated in the past thus lending plausability to young-age geo/paleo-models of earth history.
In common with mainstream geology & paleontology
* The geological column deomstrates too many breaks in layering, including interfaces displaying significant terrestial habitation, for the Paleozoic to Cenozoic to have been laid during the Flood year.
* There are some good examplkes of what appear to be genuine bioogical radiations in the fossi record best interpreted as transforamtions over time. The horse series is a good example.
Of specific relevance to the model in question
* The largest covering of the earth by water since the Cambrian occurred in the Ordovician period, in the early Paleozoic. It is descibed by Cambridge University geologist van Andel in New Views on an Old Planet (1994) :
"Regarding the early Palaeozoic in this bright light, we find a wet world, its continents inundated far more than they have ever been since then, and the rise of the sea continuing. Before this
rise ended, very little land remained above water." (p 179)
For Christians, there is some serious motivation to attempt to interperet this early Paleozoic event as the Biblical Flood.
* Terristial track-ways first appear in Devonian strata (ie mid-Paleozoic) perhaps approxaimtely marking the post-Flood boundary.
* Since the early Paleozoic the Earth has never been flooded by more than 50% of its land surface.
* At the Mesozoic/Paleozoic boundary we see the break-up of the super-continent Pangea.
Again, for Christians, there is some serious motivation to attempt to interperet this continental drift as the post-Flood 'in his days the earth was divided' event.
* The terrestial fossil order of reptiles, dinosuars, mammals, birds and man is somewhat consistent with the naive expectations of recolonization. Reptiles and dinosaurs have vast breeding rates illustrated by the large numbers of eggsfoudn in fossilized dinosaur nests (up to 50 or more) and dinosaurs rapidly matured. Mankind would have been particularly slow to migrate. Whether this can explain the fossil record in detail is a vast project which is being undertaken by UK creationists at present.
Predictions section coming . .
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-20-2005 12:51 AM

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 26 (218130)
06-19-2005 9:04 PM


Tentative predictions of the Recolonization Model
The predictions below were not used in detail to generate the model so are genuine predictions.
* The number of habitation levels in each region should be largely consistent with a total of 500 years including time for both catastrophic and more gradual sea-level changes as well as habitation itself.
* Due to the expected accelerated break-up of Pangea we would expect evidence of ultra-super-sized tsunamis that might even be responisble for entire formations. A careful examination of the stratigraphic data underlying the sea-level curves might enable local catastrophic marine incursions to be disentangled from global gradual sea-level changes and assigned to specific tectonic events.
* The gross pattern of the post-Silurian terrestial fossil record should be consistent with recolonization via modelling of breeding rates, generation times and ecological dependencies.
Probably more to come over time . .

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 26 (218133)
06-19-2005 9:32 PM


Final remarks before discussion
Why wasn't Recolonizaiton proposed earlier?
Although this model has actually been with us for about a decade - and perhaps more - we do have to ask why has this model not been suggested before?
There are several obvious paradigm shifts required:
1. The lack of pre-Flood world terrestial fossils is new as far as I know and requires a shift in thinking although the Biblical use of 'Mabul' is suggestive without being diagnostic.
2. Accepting vast post-Flood marine innundations is initially hard to accept Biblically. However, accepting that the Peleg 'dividing the earth' event represents the break-up of Pangea, then we know geologically that this event dictated the flooding of the Earth by up to 50% and no more, then we can see that it is arguably indirectly Biblical (and consistent with 'never destroying he earth again). Noah and recolonized humanity presumably settled the highlands near the ark initially and would have only migrated slowly compared to animals. Interestingly the tower of Babel event describes the peoples travelling east and settling in the 'plains' of Shinar.
Probably the most important thing I realized during the last five years was that the geological-column is dominated by marine innundations (or 'epieric' seas). My mainstream reading during 2002/2003 brought this to my attention when I was trying to work out how it was possible for creationists to make their claims when mainstream geolgoy was claiming 'gradual' layering by 'everyday means'. Yes, it turned out, the geologcial column was laid down largely by 'everyday means' - but only if one considers the incursion of 50% of the land mass by seas as 'everyday'! The question only then remains: how fast were these marine inundations?
What sort of discussions should we have?
No doubt people will want to discuss problems with the model. The major problems I can see immediately are the anti-thesis of the predictions in the post above: stratigraphy, habitation and fossils not fitting the expected patterns. But there are no doubt more.
Hopefully we can also have some contributions to understanding the consequences of the model. What theoretical (breeding rates, ecology etc) and historical proxy data (eg. Mt St Helens, Krakatoa) is around for looking at recolonization? What about habitaiton levels? What about the sea-level curves? I would hope in this thread we could discuss the unique aspects of this model rather than just the usual stuff but we of course whould discuss the 'usual stuff' (like radiodating, nature of the geological column etc) in the light of this model too.
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-20-2005 09:00 AM

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 26 (218136)
06-19-2005 9:42 PM


References on Recolonization Model
recolonisation.org.uk (The BCS's 'Recolonisation' site)
genesisagendum.org.uk (A good introduction)
http://www.amen.org.uk/eh/science/flodpg/flodpg3.htm (Similar to above as html)
recolonisation.org.uk (History of Flood interpretations)
http://www.seeking-god.co.uk/id191.htm (Summary of trackways in geo-col)
http://www.amen.org.uk/eh/science/dinos/dinos8.htm (Nature of dinosaur trackways)
http://www.amen.org.uk/eh/science/holtrep9.htm (Letter to TJ on Flood boundaries)
A day out in North Wales (A workshop report)
http://www.amen.org.uk/cl-north/98_may.htm (Comparison with Ecol Zone Model)
Missing Link | Answers in Genesis (Various Flood/Babel chronologies)
http://www.amen.org.uk/eh/science/spanwend/spanwend.htm (A field trip)
http://theologywebsite.easycgi.com/newforum/... (A discussion)
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}
TheologyWeb Campus (A debate)
recolonisation.org.uk (Ordovician trilobite speciation)
Buying and selling domains by experts | Hire a broker today! | Sedo (translated from the German)
http://www.amen.org.uk/eh/science/resorce.htm (Paul Garner's reference list)
As far as I know the idea was developed by British and German creationists including Robinson, Scheven, Garton, Garner, Johnston and Tyler. My only claim to the model is that I independently became convinced that marine innundations during the break-up of Pangea were tectonically driven and as such did not mechanistically require or necessarily indicate the Flood. Given my preference for interpreting the Gen 10 post-Flood Peleg event as the break-up of pangea I had toyed with a pre-Permian Flood but wondered where the pre-Flood world fossils were! I never made the 'Mabul' paradigm shift!
Note: when searching on the web use both 'Recolonisation' and 'Recolonization' (in separate searches) together with 'model' and 'flood'. Also use the surnames I mentioned above.
I'll keep adding to this reference list over time.
[Over to the administrators . .]
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-20-2005 09:24 PM
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 06-22-2005 01:55 PM

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 26 (218514)
06-21-2005 7:59 PM


Is there some quick comment an administrator could make to let me know why you think the Recolonization Model is not worthy of discussion?

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AdminJar, posted 06-21-2005 8:33 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 23 by Admin, posted 06-22-2005 9:46 AM Tranquility Base has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 26 (218522)
06-21-2005 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tranquility Base
06-21-2005 7:59 PM


My personal take is it's a cute science fiction story but has nothing to do with reality. Since the Flood never happened the whole idea of recolonization is moot.
AbE
My recommendation is to reject the topic. Some other Admin may take a different tack.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 06-21-2005 07:34 PM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-21-2005 7:59 PM Tranquility Base has replied

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 26 (218524)
06-21-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by AdminJar
06-21-2005 8:33 PM


A major part of this thread will be precisely the discussion of evidence for an early Paleozoic Flood. Surely we should discuss it rather than make pronouncements?
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-21-2005 08:41 PM

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13018
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 23 of 26 (218641)
06-22-2005 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tranquility Base
06-21-2005 7:59 PM


What part of this from Message 14 didn't you understand:
Admin writes:
Please, no overkill. Your "quick summary" will suffice if augmented by *one* additional paragraph describing recolonization's role in the model.
As I thought I already made clear, I need to see a thread proposal that more closely follows my requests before I can seriously consider releasing this thread. You can safely assume that further silence from me means you haven't hit the target yet.
I don't know what it is about some very bright people that causes them to be unable to follow simple requests. I just attended my son's graduation from high school this past weekend, and the short speeches from the salutatorian and valedictorian reminded me of my own graduation where the valedictorian spoke for 45 minutes after being clearly instructed that he had a 10 minute slot. Maybe it's some kind of chutspah: "I'm so smart, you can't tell me what to do."
Anyway, ignore me if you like, but not if you really want your thread released. Not that it makes any difference since you already seem to be raising the issues you want to discuss by hijacking the Where did the flood waters come from and where did they go? thread.
This message has been edited by Admin, 06-22-2005 10:24 AM

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-21-2005 7:59 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-23-2005 2:34 AM Admin has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 26 (218881)
06-23-2005 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Admin
06-22-2005 9:46 AM


I truly thought you were limiiting my Quick Summary, not my pre-listed other sections Percy.
Putting the misunderstanding of quantity of information aside, all I am proposing is that we discuss the pros and cons of this model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Admin, posted 06-22-2005 9:46 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Admin, posted 06-23-2005 11:23 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13018
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 25 of 26 (218941)
06-23-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tranquility Base
06-23-2005 2:34 AM


Your goal is to produce a short post consisting of a few points that introduces your topic. This is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. When introducing a new topic, please keep the message narrowly focused. Do not include more than a few points.
This is the "quick summary" from your Message 13 that I thought sufficient if augmented by *one* additional paragraph describing recolonization's role in the model:
Quick summary of the Recolonization Flood/post-Flood Model
The Recolnization Model displays a more mainstream-like pattern of strata and fossils, as compared to the Ecological-zoning model (ie Morris et al's standard proposal), whilst being rooted in a young-earth creationist framework. In particular, many-multiple significant habitation levels (ie, strata displaying evidence of a break in layering and terristial animal and/or plant habitation) are accomodated and the fossil ordering mechanism is based on taxon-specific recolonization of the earth from the ark dictated by breeding rates and ecological requirements.
The Recolonization Model porposes that the Noahic Flood (2500BC) was followed by a turbulent, approximately 500-year, period during which the super-continent Pangea broke-up (as suggested by post-Flood Gen 10 'In the days of Peleg the earth was divided'). The tectonic activity of Pangea break-up and sea-floor spreading caused wide-spread marine innundations that - vertically - generated more of the geological column than the Flood did, but covered less of the Earth's surface area with water and sediment. [Tentative Flood extent is Pre-cambrian to Silurian/Devonian, with the reaminder of teh Paleozoic, Mesozoic and Tertiary occurring as the Pangea-break-up tectonically induced marine inundations].
It was during this post-Flood 500 years that the animals - and people - on the ark dispersed and recolonized the earth. Animals with rapid breeding rates - like reptiles and dinosaurs - recolonized faster than mammals. Exponentially growing populations of these fast breeders ensure that the first appearences of these animals in the fossil record is lower than slow breeders, or animals ecologically dependent on other slow breeders. In a significant gain of common ground with mainstream paleontology, the Recolonization Model is compatible with many proposed evolutioanry transformations through time such as the horse series.
A key 'postulate' of the Recolonization Model is that we don't see the pre-Flood world's land animals fossilized (ie in the pre-Devonian) because the 'Mabul', (Hebrew, Gen 6) meaning 'utter destruction' of the Flood was total. The break-up of the 'fountains of the deep' hydrologically and tectonically metamorphasized these Pre-cambrian strata. [In fact the Bible's use of 'Mabul' here is the same word used to describe the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah a few chapters later].
You should probably also remove the Biblical references. We're trying to keep the science forums focused on evidence-based discussion. If you'd like to discuss how your ideas are consistent with the Bible (seems like an interesting topic) then you should propose a different thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-23-2005 2:34 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tranquility Base, posted 06-23-2005 7:29 PM Admin has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 26 (219122)
06-23-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Admin
06-23-2005 11:23 AM


Quick Summary
Note: my summary above already does include a paragraph on the role of recolonization (I added it as an edit after one of your posts). In the version below I remove Biblical references.
The Recolonization Model is a Flood/post-Flood framework that displays a more mainstream-like pattern of strata and fossils, as compared to the Ecological-zoning model (ie Morris et al's standard proposal), whilst being rooted in a young-earth framework. In particular, many-multiple significant habitation levels (ie, strata displaying evidence of a break in layering and terristial animal and/or plant habitation) are accomodated and the fossil ordering mechanism is based on taxon-specific recolonization of the earth (from a postulated particular location) dictated by breeding rates and ecological requirements.
The Recolonization Model proposes that an early Paleozoic Flood (2500BC) was followed by a turbulent, approximately 500-year, period during which the super-continent Pangea broke-up. The tectonic activity of Pangea break-up and sea-floor spreading caused wide-spread post-Flood marine inundations that - vertically - generated more of the geological column than the Flood did, but covered less of the Earth's surface area with water and sediment. [Tentative Flood extent is Pre-cambrian to Silurian/Devonian, with the reaminder of teh Paleozoic, Mesozoic and Tertiary occurring as the Pangea-break-up tectonically induced marine inundations].
It was during this post-Flood 500 years that animals - and people - dispersed from the postulatd location. Animals with rapid breeding rates - like reptiles and dinosaurs - recolonized faster than mammals. Exponentially growing populations of these fast breeders ensure that the first appearences of these animals in the fossil record is lower than slow breeders, or animals ecologically dependent on other slow breeders. In a significant gain of common ground with mainstream paleontology, the Recolonization Model is compatible with many proposed evolutioanry transformations through time such as the horse series.
A key 'postulate' of the Recolonization Model is that we don't see the pre-Flood world's land animals fossilized because the initial Flood event was hydrologically and tectonically violent.
Let's discuss the stratigraphic, geophysical, paleontological and biological evidence for this model.
This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-23-2005 08:43 PM
Released to Recolonization Flood/Post-Flood model. --Admin
This message has been edited by Admin, 06-24-2005 08:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
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