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Author Topic:   Mode of the Debate: Targeting Children
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 45 (414574)
08-04-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
08-04-2007 10:46 AM


Re: Propoganda
I watched the video and there seems little doubt that the creationist movement is blatantly out to capture the hearts and minds of children from a very early age.
well, yes. because they're fighting science, which also has a tendency to capture the hearts and minds of children with dinosaurs. kids learn about those guys from an early enough age, and it becomes harder and harder to indoctrinate them with religious pseudo-science creationism crap.
just ask... me.


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 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2007 10:46 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Doddy, posted 08-05-2007 3:21 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 9 by Straggler, posted 08-05-2007 4:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 45 (414599)
08-05-2007 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Doddy
08-05-2007 3:21 AM


Re: Propoganda
Wouldn't that mean that, if they are successful at getting to the children before science, then it will be even harder to convince those children that their creationists beliefs are in fact religious crap?
The same thing that happened to you could happen to the kids in that video, just the other way around.
i'd like to believe that knowledge trumps ignorance, but you're probably right.


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 45 (414600)
08-05-2007 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
08-05-2007 4:41 AM


Re: Propoganda
OK I will ask. What is your story in relation to having your heart and mind captured?
As a little kid I was absolutely fascinated with dinosaurs. Knew all the names. Had a decent grasp on which dinosaurs had lived in which period and knew the theory as to why they had gone extinct.
yes, similar story. still fascinated by dinosaurs. my interest exposed me to a lot of paleontology... not just the tv documentary kind, the college academic kind. you grow up knowing that the earth is very old, and understanding the reasons why we know that (geochronology, stratigraphy, etc etc), and understanding evolution's role in the geologic column... and it gets incredibly hard to swallow young-earth creationism when you're exposed to it. and when they say things that are just totally untrue, you know when they're lying through their teeth.
At the same time I was still convinced that Loch Ness contained the last living dinosaur so I was as prone to wishful thinking as any other 6 year old.
ah, see, even at 6 years old i would have been a smart-ass and told you that dinosaurs are land animals, and that if nessie is a plesiosaur, she'd be a marine reptile and not a dinosaur.
actually, i'm still somewhat prone to wishful thinking. i'd really like the loch ness monster to be real -- aside from the fact the ecosystem isn't there to support it, the basic premise that something could have survived from the age of the dinosaurs isn't all that unreasonable. a large animal would be fantastic. unlikely, but possible. several species of non-avian dinosaurs did survive the KT extinction event, but not by very long. and a few somewhat large aquatic animals (ie: crocs) survive to this day.
but yes, i followed all the loch ness stuff when i was younger. and the mkele mbembe, and other lake monsters. and a bit of bigfoot, and ufos. always with a healthy dose of skepticism, of course.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 21 of 45 (414696)
08-05-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
08-05-2007 6:55 AM


Re: Propoganda
I guess my point (as much as I have one) is that depite the fact that dinosaurs caught my imagination as a child and that I happened to be exposed to scientific findings on dino related issues rather than creationist ones, I cannot claim that at 6 years old this had any rational basis.
Dinosaurs were just cool.
yes, probably a good point. but for me at least that irrational "hey that's cool!" response led into a rational interest in the sciences, and a justified sense of wonder.
creationists seem to be attempting to exploit that initial irrational wonder, and keep it irrational.
If I had initially been presented with two points of view on dinosaurs - one where they had been extinct for millions of years and one where they had been frollicking with cave children not too long ago - I think it quite possible I would have chosen the latter on the basis of it's appeal.
actually, several species of dinosaurs preyed on our cave-children ancestors. if you go into the american southwest today, and die of dehydration, flocks of dinosaurs will prey on you too.
and the giant terror birds only died about 2 million years ago. that's pretty recent...
Once exposed to scientific thinking on dinos I agree that even at a young age you would start to see many YEC claims for what they are.
indeed.
BUT it is that first 'appeal' that the creationists in the video are aiming for.
How do we counter that?
education, i guess.


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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 45 (414701)
08-05-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-05-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Propoganda
(and they were of the brontosaurus-had-two-brains variety)
stegosaurus, which has a giant nerve-cluster in its posterior. yes, i remember those sorts of books. god, i can't believe how inaccurate some of that crap was.
they portrayed dinosaurs as big drooling lizards, dragging their tails. the kid's literature is really, really far behind the times, i guess. i have books from the same time period that depict predatory dinosaurs as fast, gracile, balanced over their hips, and covered in feathers.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 45 (414722)
08-05-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 8:09 PM


jesus camp
i saw that movie. it made me want to vomit.
i know you heard this, because i think we watched it together, but the movie neither shocked nor surprised me. it didn't bring up the vile revulsion it was clearly supposed to. perhaps it was because it didn't show me anything i hadn't seen first hand. it didn't even show me everything i'd seen first hand.
it was more... uncomfortable. "i can't believe i went to churches like this" kinda stuff.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 29 of 45 (414723)
08-05-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Grizz
08-05-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
I have discussed this with the pastor before. He implied the level of control that the parents place on the kids is meant to prevent any exposure to temptation or evil. Evolution is never brought up in these conversations. Rather, issues like pornography, sex, drugs, ect. seem to be the concern. They see evil lurking at every turn, waiting to seduce their kids. It is a neurosis or hysteria.
Most of these families home school their kids and there is no cable TV, and they strictly limit what they watch. I asked him if this might be counter-productive as one day they are going to have to go out and get a job in the real 'secular' world. His reply was, by that time their level of Christian maturity will be at a level where they are able to handle the evils that are thrown at them.
i'm quite familiar with this idea, saw it happening to some friends. it doesn't work -- it's actually counter-productive. children aren't aware of the facts of the world, and can't handle them when they do get to them. if anything, the kids are more curious.
ignorance is not strength.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 45 (414747)
08-06-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Doddy
08-05-2007 11:03 PM


Re: Propoganda
What are the chances of those children in that audience actually going to a real school at all, let alone one that teaches evolution.
not very good. the "supports bush" and "creationist" and "home school" crowds are all very closely associated, with a large degree of overlap.
my mother home schooled my younger brother a few years, for other reasons, and at her home schooling association, they were handing out "dinosaurs in the bible" and "re-elect bush" signs.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 4:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 45 (414748)
08-06-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taz
08-05-2007 11:23 PM


I think the only thing we can hope for is that these kids who are brainwashed will develop a sense of conscience which will help them reject the christian doctrine.
well, if christians were actually... you know, christian, this might be harder. but hypocrisy in the church is probably the leading reason people end up rejecting christianity. "wait, in the bible jesus said this... why are we doing the opposite?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 08-05-2007 11:23 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 08-07-2007 4:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 45 (415010)
08-07-2007 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taz
08-07-2007 4:22 PM


For years, I tried to point out the "living words" as a way to get the christians to stop hating. The problem with this approach is Jesus never actually directly said anything about certain issues, like segregation, sexism, and gay marriage. To actually see anything in the bible, both NT and OT, we have to look to Letter to the Romans or Leviticus, which of course support a variety of bigotry and sexist attitudes. During times of slavery, christians used the bible as a mean to justify slavery. Then of course, during the segregation period the christians used the bible to justify the blatant racism that was going on. During women's rights movement, the christians was able to dig up stuff in the bible to oppose women's rights to vote and stuff. Nowadays, they are using the bible to oppose gay rights.
well, yes. and they're right, too. the bible is a quite hateful text in places, when it comes down to it. but the stuff is far more basic than that.
"judge not" and "love your neighbor." i watched my church tear itself apart from the inside. had nothing to do with hating outsiders or scapegoating homosexuals -- they could barely get along with each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 08-07-2007 4:22 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 12:57 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 45 (415088)
08-08-2007 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
08-08-2007 12:57 AM


This is exactly why I abandoned the bible and god all together. The christians who hate chose the hateful texts to support their hate. The christians who love chose the loveful texts to support their love. Both are essentially just cherry picking their way through. How in the world does this demonstrate any sense of absolute morality? How in the world can you actually demonstrate that your version is the right one?
yeah, that's generally how the thought process goes. you're not alone in that logic -- i've heard it many times before.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 12:57 AM Taz has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 45 (415089)
08-08-2007 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Doddy
08-08-2007 4:06 AM


Re: Propoganda
Then seeing as education is out of the picture as a solution, what do you do? I mean, these kids will grow up as adults with the opinion that if evolution is true, we are monkeys and God is a liar. They will associate it with homosexuality, communism, genocide and racism. They won't listen to any reason or view any evidence without Ken Ham's 'Bible glasses'. It will be near impossible for them to see the light.
And, they'll vote.
i'm sorry, i don't have an answer for you. perhaps your question was rhetorical, but all i can say is "i haven't the foggiest."


This message is a reply to:
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