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Author Topic:   Mode of the Debate: Targeting Children
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 45 (414623)
08-05-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
08-05-2007 11:41 AM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
The goal is isolation, indoctrination and insulation.

My pessimistic side tells me that too many individuals will be scarred with ignorance for life by this terrible phenomenon.

My optimistic side says that this approach is doomed to failure. That the human spirit will ultimately rebel against such shackles.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 45 (414627)
08-05-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
08-05-2007 1:32 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
The key point is that the movement is designed to extent beyond just children. As I pointed out in their own words, it extends to even shunning any others who might hold differing positions.

We believe that this Statement of Faith is basic for Christian fellowship and that all born-again men and women who sincerely accept it and are separated from the world of apostasy and sin can, and should live together in peace, and that it is their Christian duty to promote harmony among the Believers.

Note the emphasis on separation and that their duty is to promote harmony among the believers. There is no mention of harmony for all or any acceptance of any other point of view. While they might adopt the slogan "Teach the Controversy" as a temporary tactic, their goal is to reject anything that disagrees with their position.

Note also their absolute rejection of association with others.

We further believe in the Biblical doctrine of ecclesiastical separation, and therefore believe that churches and Christian schools should not be associated with, members of, or in accord with organizations or movements such as the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churches, the Modern Charismatic Movement, or the Ecumenical Movement.

Their goal is simply to isolate the whole community.

Also remember that this is but one example of a vast movement in the US today.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 45 (414630)
08-05-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
08-05-2007 6:55 AM


Re: Propoganda
Straggler writes:

If I had initially been presented with two points of view on dinosaurs - one where they had been extinct for millions of years and one where they had been frollicking with cave children not too long ago - I think it quite possible I would have chosen the latter on the basis of it's appeal.

My first exposure to dinosaurs was in the Alley Oop comic strip and, later on, The Flintstones. We didn't have many books on dinosaurs back then (and they were of the brontosaurus-had-two-brains variety) but somehow I learned that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted.

I don't remeber that revelation producing any particular trauma. I never had trouble separating fact from fiction.

Years later, as a teenager, I was exposed to anti-scientific creationism. I remember my favorite pastor saying that dinosaurs never existed at all, they were a hoax. I almost expected to see a cuckoo come out of his forehead on a spring.

My brother and I used to tease our fundier cousins, telling them that there must have been dinosaurs on the ark. They vehemently argued against it. Decades later, when I found out that that's now standard creo nonsense, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.

/jaunt down memory lane

Anyway, I have some confidence in the resiliency of the human mind. Targeting children with lies is vile and insidious, but I'm not convinced it's effective.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 45 (414644)
08-05-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-05-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Propoganda
I don't remember that revelation producing any particular trauma. I never had trouble separating fact from fiction.

Never meant to imply any trauma. Just the suggestion that if presented with two opposing points of view children are more likely to choose on the basis of 'appeal' rather than rationality.

My first exposure to dinosaurs was in the Alley Oop comic strip and, later on, The Flintstones. We didn't have many books on dinosaurs back then (and they were of the brontosaurus-had-two-brains variety) but somehow I learned that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted.

Flinstones and comics are one thing. Adults all around will tell you that these things are not 'real'.
Ken Ham lecturing at the front of a hall in the role of teacher however is a figure of authority and 'knowledge'.

Anyway, I have some confidence in the resiliency of the human mind. Targeting children with lies is vile and insidious, but I'm not convinced it's effective.

I am inclined to agree. The human spirit is naturally rebellious. Especially in the face of blatant bullshit :)
However even if it does not win out as a tactic in the long term there are bound to be some individual casualties of ignoarnce and that in itself is quite depressing.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 20 of 45 (414649)
08-05-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
08-05-2007 2:44 PM


Re: Propoganda
Straggler writes:

... if presented with two opposing points of view children are more likely to choose on the basis of 'appeal' rather than rationality.

I don't think children are much different from adults in that. How often do we hear adults say they'd "rather" be a child of God than related to an ape?

Adults all around will tell you that these things are not 'real'.

They never did though. I figured out for myself that talking, porridge-eating, chair-sitting bears weren't real. If anything, that fiction helped me to understand that talking snakes are fiction too.

(I suspect that a lot of creationist adults have to unlearn the discernment that they had as children.)

However even if it does not win out as a tactic in the long term there are bound to be some individual casualties of ignoarnce and that in itself is quite depressing.

And even if we had no chance of winning in the end, the fight would still be worthwhile. :)


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 21 of 45 (414696)
08-05-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
08-05-2007 6:55 AM


Re: Propoganda
I guess my point (as much as I have one) is that depite the fact that dinosaurs caught my imagination as a child and that I happened to be exposed to scientific findings on dino related issues rather than creationist ones, I cannot claim that at 6 years old this had any rational basis.

Dinosaurs were just cool.

yes, probably a good point. but for me at least that irrational "hey that's cool!" response led into a rational interest in the sciences, and a justified sense of wonder.

creationists seem to be attempting to exploit that initial irrational wonder, and keep it irrational.

If I had initially been presented with two points of view on dinosaurs - one where they had been extinct for millions of years and one where they had been frollicking with cave children not too long ago - I think it quite possible I would have chosen the latter on the basis of it's appeal.

actually, several species of dinosaurs preyed on our cave-children ancestors. if you go into the american southwest today, and die of dehydration, flocks of dinosaurs will prey on you too.

and the giant terror birds only died about 2 million years ago. that's pretty recent...

Once exposed to scientific thinking on dinos I agree that even at a young age you would start to see many YEC claims for what they are.

indeed.

BUT it is that first 'appeal' that the creationists in the video are aiming for.
How do we counter that?

education, i guess.


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 45 (414701)
08-05-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-05-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Propoganda
(and they were of the brontosaurus-had-two-brains variety)

stegosaurus, which has a giant nerve-cluster in its posterior. yes, i remember those sorts of books. god, i can't believe how inaccurate some of that crap was.

they portrayed dinosaurs as big drooling lizards, dragging their tails. the kid's literature is really, really far behind the times, i guess. i have books from the same time period that depict predatory dinosaurs as fast, gracile, balanced over their hips, and covered in feathers.


אָרַח

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 23 of 45 (414709)
08-05-2007 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


i saw that movie. it made me want to vomit.

that was nothing like my childhood in the church. sure we sang and learned stories about jesus, but we were never used in political activity and we never learned about such political positions. i stopped going to my last member church after someone shared that there was a group from the church going to the local abortion clinic.

but then my parents were sane and may have excluded me purposely from such things. as such, i think there's something to be said for responsible parenting. i can't trust anyone who would include persons under 16 in their political action.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 45 (414710)
08-05-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-04-2007 10:32 AM


Re: The problem is not the ages, but that they lie to kids.
The problem is that the people use the tactic of direct misrepresentation of the facts, they lie to children.

they don't just lie to children. ask any adult fundie what their idea of evolution is, and i bet it's the same.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 25 of 45 (414712)
08-05-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
08-04-2007 10:46 AM


Re: Propoganda
That any belief derived from a book/person/organisation simply telling you something is true is almost always going to be a bad reason to believe.

considering that most people can't comprehend the reality of modern science and that while many evolutionistas (spelled purposely like fashionistas) have considered the philosophical consequences of evolution versus creation, most people who accept evolution probably accept it because of what some book/person/organisation told them.

there's nothing wrong with trusting what people or books tell you, as long as you consider what you know about it and how it mixes with what else you accept. the religious idea of "testing the spirits" is applicable to secular life. you have to consider your source and how trustworthy it is.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 26 of 45 (414714)
08-05-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Grizz
08-05-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
I have discussed this with the pastor before. He implied the level of control that the parents place on the kids is meant to prevent any exposure to temptation or evil. Evolution is never brought up in these conversations. Rather, issues like pornography, sex, drugs, ect. seem to be the concern. They see evil lurking at every turn, waiting to seduce their kids. It is a neurosis or hysteria.

i agree. for a year and a half of middle school i was enrolled at a christian school. aside from a single chapel (wednesday mornings) visit by the illustrious kent hovid (yes, i went to school in pensacola), the only other exposure we had to evolution in any sense was 7th grade science on the first day. we used ordinary science books and we skipped the first some chapters with a small blurb from my teacher (who i'm not sure was convinced) of "we're skipping these because we don't believe in them." (this of course led me to spend that class period reading those chapters.) however, we spent multiple bible classes and chapel sessions and even combined courses on sexual purity. in sixth grade all the boys and girls from my level were brought together and told how disappointed our teachers were that some student had claimed that he'd already 'had a girl in his bed'. we were separated after a long lecture and instructed in our separate groups about basic gender issues and how we were called to purity specific to our sex. i'm sure there was more, but i don't really remember. i was so beyond worrying at boys at that time. i had crushes, but i barely had friends.

i agree that the concerns of isolationist christians are much more complex than the anti-evolutionist agenda. evolution is easy to combat. sex isn't.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 27 of 45 (414715)
08-05-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-05-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Propoganda
Targeting children with lies is vile and insidious, but I'm not convinced it's effective.

i'm convinced that the most effective target is the post-adolescent group containing individuals who have done things they're not pleased with (the extent of these things is relative to the individual). the most fervent believers i've met are those running from their own past. they're also the quickest to blame others for their failure to renounce themselves.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 45 (414722)
08-05-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 8:09 PM


jesus camp
i saw that movie. it made me want to vomit.

i know you heard this, because i think we watched it together, but the movie neither shocked nor surprised me. it didn't bring up the vile revulsion it was clearly supposed to. perhaps it was because it didn't show me anything i hadn't seen first hand. it didn't even show me everything i'd seen first hand.

it was more... uncomfortable. "i can't believe i went to churches like this" kinda stuff.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 29 of 45 (414723)
08-05-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Grizz
08-05-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
I have discussed this with the pastor before. He implied the level of control that the parents place on the kids is meant to prevent any exposure to temptation or evil. Evolution is never brought up in these conversations. Rather, issues like pornography, sex, drugs, ect. seem to be the concern. They see evil lurking at every turn, waiting to seduce their kids. It is a neurosis or hysteria.

Most of these families home school their kids and there is no cable TV, and they strictly limit what they watch. I asked him if this might be counter-productive as one day they are going to have to go out and get a job in the real 'secular' world. His reply was, by that time their level of Christian maturity will be at a level where they are able to handle the evils that are thrown at them.

i'm quite familiar with this idea, saw it happening to some friends. it doesn't work -- it's actually counter-productive. children aren't aware of the facts of the world, and can't handle them when they do get to them. if anything, the kids are more curious.

ignorance is not strength.


אָרַח

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 30 of 45 (414731)
08-05-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by arachnophilia
08-05-2007 7:24 PM


Re: Propoganda
arachnophilia writes:

BUT it is that first 'appeal' that the creationists in the video are aiming for.
How do we counter that?

education, i guess.

What are the chances of those children in that audience actually going to a real school at all, let alone one that teaches evolution.


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This message is a reply to:
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