Second Law of Thermodynamics

In case you were unaware, the topic was about the 2LoT. So um heat is totally on subject. Totally irrelivant. If the sun's energy can cause a localized decrease in entropy in any way then the whole 2LoT prevents evolution/abiogenesis argument has failed. I seem to remember someone saying, "Stick to the subject". We are not talk about randomness or probabilities of only left handed amino acids producing life. If you want to start a thread on amino acid handedness or ordering or complexity then please do. You might be right if NCLB was actually an piece of legislation designed to support education. But that argument is also off topic. Start a thread if you like.In the mean time please continue with your academic sounding tirade against people whos level of education you know nothing about. It is quite entertaining.

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No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Question: What has more workable energy, water at near absolute zero or a cloud?I contend that solar energy acting on a body of maximum entropic water (ice) can lead to water with less entropy: Liquid water and clouds. The later has workable energy, right? Amino acids in hot water form proteinoids, protenoids which have been in hot water then cooled form microspheres. Microspheres grow, and 'replicate', and can form nucelic acids and polypeptides.

Coming from you, Peachy, that's quite a compliment.Thank you very much, sir--may I have another?

Heh, that's what you think. Don't you know? The subject is "OMG evilutionists are teh dumbz0r!!!11!1"

First we were tallking about processes that make and sustain life which are both physical, chemical and informational.. all of which have distinctly thermodynamic considerations. It is now a proven, demonstrated and accepted fact that the laws of thermodynamics can be formulated from a maxiumum entropy perspective, a mimimum free energy perspective and a maximum informational entropy perspective which includes configuration,order and complexity.Life as currently understood requires the organized interactions of specific amino acids arranged alternately in elongated chains of substantial length called polymers. These in turn are physically arranged via optical purity in form into the double helix of DNA so that unprecedented storage efficiency of infomation (the Genetic Code) can be effected in a microscopic space. Then using a vsariety of complex protein and enzymic structures the DNA can be replcated and in turn serve as the progenitor of messages which when read and interepreted result in the manufare of proteins and enzymes which in a closed loop fashion contribute to the DNA replication and to the servicing of a a host of cellular operations.Melting ice with solar heat simply releases the physical lattice bonds and diminishes the order or form water is taking as a function of temperature. The entropy difference between ice at equilibrium and water at equilibrium with its surroundings having passed through a set of quasi-equilibrium states is calculable.However there is no complexity whatsoever just change in order. Water carries no informational code like DNA.Ice has been used quite well as a refrigerant for food in the past providing a local temperature gradient for heat energy flows.Water of course has and is used as a working medium for superheated steam and the production of electricity.What's your point?

Do you have one? You are also making a stretch there that 'information' has anything to do what so ever with SLOT. It does not.

yeah, i mean. this really isn't difficult.

quote:

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Main Entry: therm-
Variant(s): or thermo-
Function: combining form
Etymology: Greek, from thermE

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1 : heat

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quote:

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Main Entry: dy·nam·ics
Pronunciation: dI-'na-miks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction

​

2 : a pattern or process of change, growth, or activity

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now, take the two and put them together. thermo (heat) + dynamics (change) = change in heat. i wonder what the second law of thermodynamics could be talking about?information!god, they really need to start teaching root words in school again.

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From Wikopedia.This postulate is necessary because it allows one to conclude that for a system at equilibrium, the thermodynamic state (macrostate) which could result from the largest number of microstates is also the most probable macrostate of the system.This allows for the definition of the information function (in the context of information theory):When all rhos are equal, I is minimal, which reflects the fact that we have minimal information about the system. When our information is maximal, i.e. one rho is equal to one and the rest to zero (we know what state the system is in), the function is maximal.This "information function" is the same as the reduced entropic function in thermodynamics.See KUO on Thermodynamics and his entire chapter deriving and equating the second law and entropy relationships in both formulations.In fact these relationships are the subject of grad level classes in several leading universities.Thaxtons paper also clarifies this equivalence.

no. it does not. see above.

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Evopeach, Please demonstrate this to be the case. Every single formulation of 2LOT I have seen singularly fails to mention information. 2LOT deals with the correlation of entropy & energy & has nothing to do with information. And how, exactly, does the statistical increase in entropy in a closed system preclude the natural formation of the above?Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

I see, spidey, you asserting that it does not but not explaining why it doesn't.

because if it were about transfer of information, it'd be called "infodynamics" not "thermodynamics." thermo- means heat, so the laws of thermo dynamics are laws the govern the transfer of heat.not information.

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Entropy in information theory and entropy in thermodynamics can be shown to be closely related, even equivalent in a way (anyone that doubts this should visit Wikipedia), but looking at the opening post of this thread I don't think this is the discussion that was intended.The discussion you would like to have actually concerns whether information can increase by natural means, but you're doing it in a thread about 2LOT. I'm aware that you can advance arguments that they're the same thing, but given the level of the opening post, obviously by someone who doesn't understand 2LOT, changing the representation of 2LOT into an informational form is going to be terribly confusing.I think you should open a new thread to discuss informational entropic considerations on the creation of new information.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Lets review how free energy and entropy govern all chemical reactione in life processes and they being fundamental thermodynamic concepts.The chemical reactions that cause life to proceed starting with the original formation of polymers of the 20 amino acids used in life will not ever, never and absolutely will not proceed on their own spontaneously. They will proceed chemically if energy of the correct form is supplied and if the environment is p

That sounds like the nonsense that Dembski made up about 'conservation of information.'Define 'Information'. Give me a mechanism that 'information' can be detected.It sounds like to me that someone is trying to desperartly combine a totally metaphysical concept with a totally phsyical description of how heat behaves.