Patterns and Tautologies (The Circular Logic of Homologies)

I'll do you better than just one and name six limited to just muscles.Originally posted to WorldWideWord on May 10, 2008.The concept of vestigial organs provides strong evidence for evolution and is clearly a threat to any argument concerning the special creation or special design of the various categories of organisms unless that concept allows for evolution. It is considered such a threat that those who believe in special creation via continuous interference in biologic history are compelled to state that there are no vestigial organs whatsoever. See Do Any Vestigial Organs Exist in Humans? | Answers in Genesis for an example of this false assertion along with some other desperate, irrational and baseless statements.Arguments against the evolutionary explanation for vestiges such as the supposed necessity of the appendix and the coccyx abound in anti-evolution literature. Less substantial excuses are also made for those vestiges that are more difficult to explain away, such as wisdom teeth or nictating membranes. However one category of vestiges stands out as being virtually impossible to dismiss, which is the existence/absence of various vestigial muscles.The central problem with certain vestigial muscles is that substantial percentages of the population completely lack the muscle in question. How can one assert that a given vestige is helpful or even necessary for a given creature when it is not even present at birth?In humans there are several vestigial muscles that are absent in a considerable percentage of the population. They include:Darwin's Point or tubercle, absent in 90% of humans.
The Palmaris muscle, absent in 11% of humans.
The Plantaris muscle, absent in 9% of humans.
The Pyramidalis Muscle, absent in 20% of humans.
The Subclavius muscle, don’t have a figure yet.
Vibrissal capsular muscles, absent in 65% of humans.To look at a few more closely:The Plantaris Muscle is used in swinging in trees by the feet as seen in most non-human primates.From Those Naughty Vestigial Bits in Skeptic Report.

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Dr. Richard Brown of Bristol, UK, submits the following: Ever since I first dissected the plantaris muscle in the human calf as a medical student, I have been a convinced evolutionist. In the monkey it is a useful muscle which causes all the digits to flex at once, and thus is useful in swinging from trees by the feet. In the human it is atrophied, may be absent, and does not even reach the toes, but disappears into the Achilles tendon. There is no sensible reason for its existence in the human, except a common ancestry with monkeys. Try telling that to a creationist, however. In my experience they change the subject!

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Vibrissal capsular muscles are used in other mammals in the movement of sinus hairs.From the abstract of Vestiges of Vibrissal Capsular Muscles Exist in the Human Upper Lip in Clinical Anatomy v.20 issue 6, 25 April 2007.

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In nonhuman mammals, sinus hairs grow around the nostrils and serve for tactile sensation. The hair follicles of sinus hairs are rooted in vibrissal capsular muscles connected to the underlying, deeper orbicularis oris, thereby enabling the voluntary movement of sinus hairs. These vibrissal capsular muscles as well as the sinus hairs are believed to have been lost during human evolution, and no previous reports can be found on the existence of vestiges of sinus hairs in humans. Our study, however, has now verified the existence of vestigial muscles of vibrissae in the human upper lip. Using conventional histological techniques, microscopic observations were made on specimens obtained from the upper lips of human adult cadavers. In 35% of these individuals, several striated muscle fascicles diverging from the underlying orbicularis oris and reaching the hair follicles were observed. Histological findings of the vibrissal capsular muscle complex suggest that these fascicles are a vestigial remnant of the sinus hair muscle.

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So here is the big problem, how can necessary and absent be synonyms in creotalk? What does this say about following any supposed law of noncontradiction?Now remember, in order to satisfactorily debunk the concept of evolution via the lack of vestigial structures, every single one of these must be shown to have a current function, including the significant percentage of situations where the vestigial structure does not even exist.Edited by anglagard, : word that last sentence a little better than in original.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Of course vestigial organs provide strong evidence for evolution and against any micromanaging 'intelligent designer.' Why would an intelligent designer load the body with atrophied vestiges that clearly had a purpose in the past but do not now at present? I have news for you. Evolutionists don't have to do anything you say because you don't have the slightest idea of what evolution is actually about. In reality evolution shows that a preexisting structure is gradually modified for one or more new purposes where such modifications result in an evolutionary advantage. A vestige is actually the opposite of this scenario as it is a structure that once had a purpose that no longer exists and therefore is gradually selected against as a useless drain on nutritional resources. What creationists 'know' about a perfect creation running down has been decisively debunked by the examination of the genome of mummified remains such as Oetzi. You have absolutely no evidence for this absurd hypothesis.{ABE} See Message 1. The thread is still open for anyone to post their 'evidence' for the perfect 'super genome' running down over time. Oh you have more problems than that. The biggest one is what my post is all about, so to remind you I will ask again.What is the function of a muscle that does not exist in a significant percentage of the population? Loss most certainly equals evolution as much as any gain. Do you still breathe through your gills?Also, are you claiming that impacted wisdom teeth are caused solely by processed food? Do you realize that is a testable claim? According to your hypothesis, no one ever had an impacted wisdom tooth in the past. If one counterexample is found (and there are thousands) your hypothesis is refuted. Wow, how can I respond to such flawless logic? So, what is the percentage of people who are born without eyes? Is that figure comparable to the 90% born without Darwin's point or the 65% born without vibrissal capsular muscles? Do you know the difference between an absent vestige and a birth defect?So what is this great advantage people have that are born with atrophied vibrissal capsular muscles that don't even connect to the hair anymore? What is the advantage of the plantaris muscle that no longer reaches the toes? Hilarious. Just because you can't tell the difference between a muscle, used for movement, and a nerve, used for sensation, don't expect anyone else to be impressed by such appalling ignorance.

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The Plantaris Muscle is used in swinging in trees by the feet as seen in most non-human primates.

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Or don't need it at all as shown by the millions of people who were born without it to no detriment whatsoever. Why? And I repeat:What is the function of a muscle that does not exist in a significant percentage of the population?Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

To be accurate, the plantaris has been hypothesized to serve some kind of proprieception function. I would argue that this function is served by all the other nerves and associated muscles in the leg and foot as it must when the plantaris muscle is absent. Additionally according to my research, when the muscle is removed, the subject rarely, if ever 'loses' the sense of their leg and/or foot in space, provided such a removal is limited to just the muscle and not any quite important nearby nerves. IMO because of these observations, the hypothesis has little or no supporting evidence. Unless such evidence is forthcoming, I see no reason to consider the plantaris muscle anything other than a true vestige. I'm not sure what this statement refers to or what it means. Well, because it has disappeared in 9% of the population since the tree dwelling days, I think we can see what direction it has been headed toward, which is gradual disappearance. As to any future co-option toward a new function, you are right, only the future can tell. However if the past is a decent indicator of the present, IMO co-option is a remote possibility at best. It is impossible to change a hard-core young earth creationist's mind due to the extreme mental compartmentalization commonly present in Right Wing Authoritarians. Didn't I just read this gem from Beretta in the No evolution/creation debate in Europe thread:

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Evolution is by no means grounded in observation and evidence. Physics and chemistry is and has no need for evolution whatsoever.Neither is evolution the entire groundwork for modern biology.

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I still await an answer to my question: What is the function of a muscle that does not exist in a significant percentage of the population? From the OP:AlphaOmegakid wrote:

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Vesigial features are circular reasoned.

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To which Bluejay responded in the OP:

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I would like him to defend these claims, but to do so on RAZD's thread would probably drive RAZD to the psycho ward, so I propose this thread to discuss AOkid's claims about tautologies in evolutionary thought.

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and,

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To this, I respond that any study written today about a homology or vestige is resting on a long history of dozens, hundreds or even thousands of similar studies that have already established the pattern that we are using to interpret our new data, and more additions to the pattern are being unearthed every year. Furthermore, when we uncover new data, we sometimes find how our pattern needs to be adjusted, and we adjust it accordingly.

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Because of the above quotes, I felt that it was marginally on topic to point out that there is a such thing as vestigial muscles in humans. I'm sure that if my interpretation is wrong according to the rules of the forum, our ever-vigilant moderators will soon let me know. Also, you have the option to complain in the appropriate thread if you feel that I am posting off-topic responses.If you would like to further discuss the narrower topic of this or that hypothesis concerning any current or speculated future function for such muscles, I suppose we can always request a PNT. It should be in a science thread where supportive evidence is provided, something I believe is currently insufficient to counter what I have already posted. Edited by anglagard, : add the qualifier marginally to on topic as the thread is primarily about circular reasoning in homologiesEdited by anglagard, : add 'and foot' to make it leg and foot for better clarityEdited by anglagard, : same as above: leg and/or foot

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza